Yet another coolant thread - Matrix Chart

I ran across a great matrix chart of the various coolants available.
Six coolants have checks in the HOAT column, and five of these are
listed as meeting DaimlerChrysler OEM specifications.

If the chart is accurate, I'm curious why the Mopar HOAT coolant has a
check in the w/out Phosphate column, but the Zerex G-05 does not. I had
assumed these two coolants were exactly the same, save the orange vs.
yellow dye.

http://www.eetcorp.com/antifreeze/Coolants_matrix.pdf

 

It is a good reference chart and I am saving it for closer study.
Dont know about the phosphate question.
These formulations can be complicated to design, and still have
everything work as it should. Some work I did about 10 years ago
would have lead me to believe that a little phosphate was extremely
desirable, especially where iron or steel is involved.

A type of corrosion is found where steel is exposed to water based
systems (although they are oxygen free and elevated pH) that
is easily stopped by a very small percentage of phosphate.

The reason why phosphate is not used in some of these systems
is not intuitively obvious.

 

You could write cliffhanger novels.

 

When one has written scientific reports and presentations for years as I
have,
CYA English often results. Sorry.

 

In plain English, Ive never seen a system where water or water solutions
contacted steel
that would not benefit from a little phosphate. About 2% is normally
enough.

I dont know why they choose to avoid it exactly, unless it is a tribure to
political correctness.

 

Well, I *forgive* ya and all, I know where you're coming from since I
frequently have to write in Regulatorese, but...what's the reason why
phosphate is not used in some of these systems?

 

That is similar to my understanding

Ah. Thank you. I was wondering what you might have known but not
elucidated when you said the reason wasn't intuitively obvious.

 

Some locales legislated against phosphate use for environmental reasons,
with the idea that the phosphates will eventually end up in surface water
and encourage algae bloom. Even those laws will normally allow small
concentrations, but 'political correctness' sometimes leads formulators
to avoid the use of the unpopular additive.

The whole OAT and HOAT situation arose as a quest to substitute some
of the better additives with those which appear to be less toxic and less
persistent in the environment.

The versions of those packages that were available at the time I was
involved did not appear to have the 'robustness' of performance that
the older technology could provide. (Now, that is really a CYA statement)

 

Yeah, well, here's mine:

OAT sucks, and I'm sometimes a slow learner. It took me four head gaskets,
two heater cores and four radiators, on six cars, before I got the hint
and quit using Dex-Cool.

DS

 

Probably. Phosphates lead to foaming in streams, among other things.
There's been a big push to reduce phosphates in laundry detergents for
decades.

Of course we're all supposed (nudge nudge, wink wink) to recycle our
antifreeze as if it were just as nasty as motor oil... and then
phosphates wouldn't be a problem, would they? Of course antifreeze is
not nearly so bad as motor oil because it breaks down quickly. But it is
toxic until it does so.

 

Here is the environmental attorney in me. Phosphates are a nutriant for
plants. When it finds its way into our streams and lakes it promotes the
growth of water plant growth. This is often not a good thing since the rapid
unnatural growth of such plants can choke off the waterway and kill off
useful species of plants and fish.

Richard.

 

Given a choice between rotting away my iron engine block or being more
careful with used coolant, I'll take the phosphates and be careful.

 

Backing up to the fact that the chart shows Mopar G-05 as "phosphate
free" but not Zerex G-05....

For what its worth, Zerex's web page on their G-05 DOES claim its
phosphate free:

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=10

So I guess I'm back to asking myself whether Zerex G-05 is any damn good
for an iron-block engine or not. :-/

 

That is correct. It doesnt lead to foaming, as was previously suggested but
it
can support plant life, particularly algae.

 

I would not publicly knock any product unless I had personally tested it and
knew it was a POS.

When you have brass in the radiator, tin/lead solder, iron in the block,
aluminum
in various components, etc, it becomes very difficult to arrive at a
formulation
which will do everything well.

Some of the organic acid technology LOOKS good, during short tests, but may
fall short with time and exposure. It is not because the component is
consumed
necessarily. It may be because the nature of the corrosion mechanism
changes
as the system ages.

 

The simple answer is obvious, buy ethylene glycol (or propylene
glycol) and DI water "straight up" and add your own additive package as
needed. Of course although a 55 galon drum of glycol is available, the
additive packs aren't.

Is there ONE coolant good for a Series 60 Detroit Diesel, a V-1710
Allison, a Honda Civic, a Ford Focus and a Isuzu powered Thermo-King
reefer unit?

 

I've been using Dex-cool ever since stores started carrying Havoline
Extended Life and have never had problems. This is with a VW, Toyotas
(incl. a Nova), a Ford (Mazda engine), and a Honda. What did the
manufacturers of your cars do wrong?

 

How much phosphate is introduced into lakes and rivers from antifreeze?
My guess is much less than from laundry detergents.

How much pollution does each environmental attorney eliminate compared
to each environmental scientist?

 

I bought a VW in the late 1970s and noticed it required phosphate-free
antifreeze, which back then wasn't available except from VW dealers and
a few import parts stores that carried BASF antifreeze. This VW had an
aluminum cylinder head and radiator (and maybe heater core) but iron
block. Other than hard water (I used only distilled), was there any
reason for VW to prohibit phosphate?

What type of antifreeze do you prefer after the factory warranty is
over?

 

How much pollution does each environmental attorney eliminate compared
to each environmental scientist?

Well, when I worked for government the environmental scientist would
identify a problem and a likely source, and the environmental attorney would
write the regulations, recommend the statutes and direct the collection of
evidence so that the source could be controlled. I never heard of
anti-freeze being identified as a significant source of phosphate pollution
in a water body or stream. Just don't drink the stuff.

Richard.