What is "initial quality" as per the commercials?

No, I think you're touching on one of the subtexts of this thread:
different measures of quality. When I lived in Germany, VW's were
perceived as high-quality cars there, at the same time that they were
ranking near the bottom in the U.S. The difference, I'm convinvced,
was that quality was judged differently. The U.S., at that time, was
focused on things like the Power initial quality measure: the number
of things that were "wrong" with a new car. Germans would get a copy
of the auto club magazine, which published breakdown statistics. The
Americans were concerned with how often the car had to go back to the
dealer, no matter how trivial the problem; the Germans wanted to know
that the car wouldn't leave them by the side of the road. That doesn't
mean that one quality metric is "better" than the other; each has its
place, and carmakers try to do well on all of them.

 

Do you mean stupid little annoying problems like manual transmissions that lose
fourth and fifth gear? Or timing belt tensioners that jam and take out the valve
train? Or things like door handles that literally fall off the car? Or maybe the
thick coat of oil on everything under the hood? Or maybe the power windows that
stop working after three years? Or maybe it is the silly release bearing mechanism
that wears out years before the clutch? Fine German engineering at its peak. We
have owned a bunch of different car brands in my family and the only cars less
reliable that a VW were a Toyota and several British cars. I actually though about
buying a Jetta TDI because of the terrific fuel economy, but then I came to my
senses and remembered it was a VW.

Ed

 

Nathan Nagel wrote:

get the impression that VWs are "at the bottom" of

I don't know. I se a lot more old K-cars and Cavaliers than I see old
water-cooled Veedubs. They never quite figured liquid cooling out, and
if you want proof look at the plumbing nightmare on a VR6 or W8 engine.
Absolutely intestinal looking!

 

I'll give you that they've lost their roots, but the original 1.6 and
1.8 engines are damn near bulletproof. Heck, they made a Diesel out of
it and it held together which is more than you can say for the Olds 350
(which is a strong engine in its own right)

nate

 

A count of defects within the first 90 days of ownership, mostly
defects in fit, paint, and rattles, and it's not a good indicator of
long-term reliability because it favors cars that have been carefully
finished, i.e., luxury cars, rather than those of the best mechanical
assembly and design (Toyota, Honda).
There's little correlation between initial quality and long term
reliability, and even Powers' longer term surveys show this. But
Powers surveys seem to give different results than those of Consumer
Reports and Popular Mechanics (1-year trouble figure, usually 10-40%)
or the records of commercial leasing companies.

 

The recent JD Power rankings placed VW near the bottom. I happen to like VW
and Audi cars, but they definitely aren't models of either initial or
long-term quality. Fun to drive tho...

C

 

Well, at least you're finally agreeing that you're full of crap about the
reliability. I knew you had it in you, sport.

C

 

What did you buy instead?

DAS
--

 

I bought a Saturn Vue (4 cylinder). Not nearly the gas mileage of the Jetta,
but it cost less and has a lot more room inside. So far it is averaging around
23 mpg in around town use and has not needed any attention from the dealer. It
might be I took a chance on the devil I didn't know instead of the devil I do
know. However, I reviewed the Saturn newsgroup and it did not seem to reflect
a lot of unhappy owners, so I thought I'd take a chance. Who knows, in 4 or 5
years I may wish I had bought the Jetta - but I doubt it. The Jetta's big
mileage numbers were awfully attractive. But then the Toyota Prius has even
bigger numbers and I didn't even consider it (or the Honda Civic Hybrid). I
have always found Japanese cars to be cramped no matter what the reported
measurements say. On the other hand, German cars seem spacious, even if the
numbers say they are smaller than equivalent Japanese cars. I don't understand
it, but I still find it to be true. It seems ironic to me that German cars are
among the least reliable cars sold in the US given the impression I have that
Germans always "do things right." I do believe German engineers aren't willing
to adapt there designs to the American market. I am sure in Germany the cars
are properly maintained, where in the US that might not always be the case. In
Germany they just don't have many "old" cars (8+ years old), while in this
country, the average life of a car is 14 years or so. I guess I am looking for
a German engineered car, with Japanese quality, built by Americans at a third
world price.

Ed

 

I hope you get many years out of the Saturn.

FYI I used to get the monthly mag of Germany's leading motoring and
breakdown rescue organisation, ADAC, equivalent of AAA I think. Once a year
they published their breakdown statistics. Only cars that had annual
registrations exceeding 10 000 were included to give some statistical
validity.

In all classes where the Japanese Big Three were represented (Honda, Nissan,
Toyota) they came top of the reliablity tables.

Individual models from other manufacturers beat them, e.g. certain Mercedes
diesels, but the JP manufacturers as a whole came top.

Like all stats they had to be read with some care, e.g. Merc S-Class seemed
to have an unexpectedly high number of faults. This was a bit misleading as
the figures were not normalised for mileage, and S-Class owners put in
above-average distances. Nevertheless, the overall results gave a good
indication of 'what's what'.

I haven't seen the numbers for a few years but I thought it might still be
worthwhile sharing this info.

DAS

 

I think you hit it on the head here. My mom has had Volkswagons for
decades. The worst by fas was her '64 & 1/2 Square Back - the last
production 6V !!!! car! What a pain in the ass. But, it still went
130,000 MILES, and on the factory clutch at that! (Before she sold it,
hehehe

I have a co-worker with a VR6. He has had a number of problems.
Investigation has shown that the car (sold in Canada) had most of the
parts made in Germany, but it was assembled in Mexico. Most of his
problems have been assembly related.

I have seen that the VW's that were made in Germany seem to command a
higher price here on the used market. Nowadays, you dont see them too
often unless someone actually shipped them privately direcetly from
Germany. But the German Made VWs seem to be better.

Perhaps that is where the problem lies.

But I do believe you can get a lemon no matter where the thing was
made.

My mom is still driving a 93 Jetta - a year which was supposedly rife
with all kinds of problems. Any problems she had were covered by the
warranty, and the car purrs just as good today as the day it drove out
of the showroom - and as far as I am concerned it looks WAY BETTER
than the ultra-rounded-bubble car designs for jettas, et al, that VW
is producing now! The 93 and 94 jettas have great classic lines, the
new ones look like crap. Last year we were asked at a gas station if
this was the "new" Jetta! The car is garage kept, and looks new, so he
thought VW was bringing back a "good lloking" car! He was shocked to
find that the car was pushing 10 years old.

Be that as it may, I dont like VWs. The parts are WAY to damn
expensive, and they always have been! $100??? Baby, you cant wipe your
nose for $100 in a VW service shop here in Canada! By the time you get
p&l try more like $500 to START.

Way too rich for my blood.

As always YMMV