What Bugs Me About the 300

Very roughly the national average wage is GBP 24 000 (c. USD 43 000 @ 1.8.)

Until about now you could not buy easily certain Chrysler models in the UK,
such as the 300s, as the official dealers did not sell them.

Even now the 300 is not listed:-

http://www.chryslerjeep.co.uk/chrysler/r5/home2.asp

Thus no price yet. In the review there was an estimate of GBP 30 000 (c.
USD 54 000).

However, the 300M is officially sold in Germany, where it starts at about
EUR 40 000 (c. USD 48 000 @ 1.2).

Just cruise around the Chrysler website for all this info.

I think this shows you why these cars don't sell well -- far too expensive
for what you get (if you rule out exclusivity). This was confirmed by data
I collected for the Sebring convertible, which I drove in the US last year.
It would have been nice for the US price, but at its European price it does
not compete well with the Merc cabrio, which is similar in size, i.e. a full
4-seater. And with the Merc I get a much bigger range of engine sizes.

Having said that, I think there are more 'American' Chryslers in Europe
(even from pre-DC days) than from Ford & GM because, AFAIK, there are no
Chrysler factories in Europe any more, so any sales here have to come from
North American factories. Very different for Ford and GM, who produce vast
volumes here, both under their own names and under bought-in brands (Volvo
and Saab to name but two).

Now that Chrysler has a German/Euro parent/partner, I am sure it will get
more exposure in Europe, especially in Germany. Don't forget that Jeeps
already sell quite well and have been for years. There are quite a few PT
Cruisers in the UK and the Grand Voyager is a respectable competitor in this
'Renault Espace class'.

In the UK in particular these cars (Ford and Vauxhall) dominate the Top 10,
so neither GM nor Ford would have any interest in bringing over cars from
the US.

They do exist, even those long limos (incongrous in London!), but they are
special imports via specialist dealers or individuals.

Look at these websites to get price ideas:
http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/build
http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/priceGuide/index.jhtml?vehicleType=Car

List prices are usually discounted, but I wouldn't know if it's more than,
say, 5%.

Top 10 sellers in UK in first quarter 04:-

43,115 Ford Focus
33,355 Vauxhall Corsa
29,479 Peugeot 206
27,217 Ford Fiesta
23,496 Vauxhall Astra
22,283 Renault Megane
21,688 ditto Clio
19,067 Ford Mondeo
18,366 VW Golf
17,830 Peugeot 307

In Germany the Top 10 are quite different, dominated by VW/Audi, Merc and
BMW:

http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/pkw_neuzulassungen_2003.html

These are the figs for year 2003.



Finally, here is the full text of the Sunday Times review article. I do not
subscribe so I don't know what the problem was. I even tried clicking on
the link in the msg I posted -- no problem. I have written nothing further
after
article -- this post is long enough!


May 02, 2004

First Drive: Andrew Frankel drives the Chrysler 300C



A triumph against the odds

By the standards of the modern BMWs, Audis and Jaguars against
which it is intended to compete, the new Chrysler 300C is a flawed car. And
this from a marque whose image would be confused were it not already barely
detectable. So it says something about the power of charm that these words
are flowing from my fingers with an enthusiasm I cannot remember any
30-grand saloon engendering in the recent past. The 300C is not a very good
car but, to the right sort of person, it may just come to be thought of as a
great one.



I'll explain. Think of a Chrysler and there's an equal chance
that anything from a large MPV, a retro-funky hatchback, a cute coupé, a
small saloon or even an 8 litre supercar could float through your mind. We
know they come from America, but it's never seemed clear what their focus in
Britain was.

This speaks of a brand personality more splintered than split,
and adding a large saloon to the unlikely mix would hardly seem to help
bring a sense of cohesion. Bringing the 300C to Britain - as Chrysler will
next year - seems at first a triumph of optimism over common sense, and even
pure folly when you consider its merits relative to the German opposition.

Its platform is evolved from the E-class Mercedes - not the one
you can buy today, but the previous generation, a car I was writing about 10
years ago. The only truly Chrysler element of the running gear is its
engine, which, instead of being a Stuttgart-designed multi-valve marvel with
a quartet of camshafts, is a simple slice of Detroit metal with two valves
for each of its eight cylinders and a single camshaft. They call it the
"Hemi" because its combustion chambers are hemispherical, something of an
innovation when Chrysler began making Hemis in 1952.

At first glance the 300C appears to be the worst of all worlds:
a cynical plundering of obsolete engineering to be foisted upon a public the
company must hope wouldn't know a good car if it ran them over.

Then again, just look at it. It is a masterpiece from front to
back - I love its high waist and short glasshouse. Unmistakably,
unapologetically American, it oozes cool and confidence.

Now turn your attention back to its mechanics: the old E-class
chassis was a class act then and so it remains. And as for that apparently
antediluvian engine, it's actually brand new and, in one respect at least, a
sight more clever than any European rival. Boasting 5.7 litres and 340bhp at
maximum effort, if you choose merely to potter it automatically turns off
half its cylinders, boosting fuel economy by 10-20%.

Use all eight cylinders and the 300C is quick - the claimed
0-62mph time of 6.4sec seems conservative. Its Mercedes five-speed automatic
gearbox is smooth and slick but I'd have preferred a slightly louder, more
raw exhaust note for that authentic muscle-car sound.

The age of the chassis shows most on tight roads, where the
stiff steering feels lifeless, the nose heavy and the ride jittery. Give it
some space, however, and a decent road surface and it can be hustled along
at a pace you'd need an unusually well driven European saloon of similar
power to eclipse. It's also refined enough for normal conversation to take
place at 130mph.

My biggest quibble is with the interior. It's a triumph by
American standards but is still miles behind the Audis of this world. There
are too many hard plastics, poorly fitted panels and unrelieved expanses of
grey to come close to the quality the customer now expects. It's not exactly
a grand saloon in the US fashion, either - space in the back and boot is
acceptable but no more.

Which is why I struggle to see how the 300C Hemi (and the 3.5
litre petrol and 3 litre turbodiesel variants) is going to tempt buyers from
the German quality manufacturers. It may be that Chrysler is able to sell
the 300C for more than £10,000 less than the equivalent BMW or Audi, but in
a market propelled by a fanatical desire to drive the "right" car I doubt
even that will be enough.

All is not lost, however. Chrysler should point the 300C in a
different direction. There is good evidence that the market for large
mass-produced saloons is waning, with Ford and Vauxhall for example electing
not to replace the Scorpio and Omega. This provides an opportunity the 300C
can exploit, particularly as Chrysler aims to shift just 2,000 a year in
Britain.

It is a car that oozes charm. And who cares about a lack of
brand image when you're selling against cars as forgettable as a Peugeot 607
or Volvo S80, or as conspicuously ugly as a Renault Vel Satis? If I was
offered a 300C as an alternative company car to any of the established
players in this class, my fleet chief would lose his arm at the elbow.

VITAL STATISTICS

Model: Chrysler 300C 5.7L V8
Engine type: V8, 5654cc
Torque: 340bhp @ 5000rpm / 387 lb ft @ 4000rpm
Transmission: Five-speed automatic, rear-wheel drive
Suspension: (front) coil springs, double wishbones, anti-roll
bar (rear) coil springs, multilink axle, anti-roll bar
Performance: 0-62mph: 6.4sec / top speed: 155mph
Price: £30,000
Verdict: More than makes up in charm what it lacks in image and
outright ability
Rating:

THE OPPOSITION

Model: BMW 545i SE, £41,925
For: Driving experience, engine, build quality
Against: Highly individualistic styling will
polarise opinion

Model: Mercedes E500, £43,750
For: A consummate all-rounder
Against: More expensive, quality not what it used to be,
especially inside; dealers can be poor

 

Even in Pennsylvania the roads will surprise you. The National Road,
old Route 40, winds up and down the mountains for hundreds of miles,
at grades which taxed my 330i's ability to accelerate up them. Compared
to the UK we have a lot more straight roads... and a lot more curvy
ones... a lot more roads period.

FWIW it is believed that the Chrysler LX sedans (300 and Magnum) share
a great deal with the outgoing W210 E-class, although all Chrysler
admits to in the press kit is the rear suspension layout.

I remember being part of that!

We USians like to name our V8s for some reason. While a Bimmer person
is perfectly content talking about an M20 or M54 motor, your average
domestic car fan wants a name. Ford has the Triton V8, Chevy the
Vortec... Chrysler had the Magnum but now has the Hemi. Even Toyota
got into the act, naming their 4.7 V8 the "i-Force" (perhaps the
lamest marketing name ever applied to a V8, reeking as it does of some
cheap little plastic doodad accessory for an Apple desktop computer)
for our consumption. And, of course, there's the brilliantly named
Cadillac Northstar V-8.

I still like the idea of a Hemi-powered E570 Benz. If they sold it
side-by-side with the E500, at prices reflecting what it cost to build
each of them, I don't think they'd ever sell another one of those
three-valve lamers.

 

Jack Baruth wrote:

No KIDDING! And the simpler Hemi is going to absolutely clobber the Rube
Goldberg Stuttgart engines in terms of reliability. Heck, ALL Chrysler
engines have always beaten the Benz gasoline engines in terms of longevity.

 

Just on the issue of commonality with Merc, yes there is already a fair bit
in notional parts, and there will be more so, but it does not make Chryslers
into Mercs, any more than a Jag is like a Ford even though they share some
parts.

I must admit, an E 570 is a tempting proposition but, I fear, out of reach
of the vast majority of the population, unless well-used.

DAS

 

For what it's worth, there have been a handful of 300M owners in Russia
and the Middle East fairly regularly posting on the 300M ezBoard (also
have seen a few Intrepid owners on the DI.net forums). Don't know what
the numbers are as far as exports to those countries, and it could very
well be well-connected people who shipped them in from the U.S. or
elsewhere (in fact I know that to be true for one or two of those
people).

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

The average per capita income in the US last year was somewhere
between $30k and $32k. The price of a base model 2004 300M is $29k.

So basically a 300M is priced right at the point where it takes the
average US worker about 1 years worth of salary to buy. In the UK it
seems the average worker must work about 1.25 years to be able to buy
a 300M there. No idea why it should be that way...

Huh? If you mean there are no European cars with Ford or GM badges,
well, maybe, but I think that cars wearing Ford badges are somewhat
common. Certainly more common than Chrysler cars.

Were there ever?

Don't hold your breath. The 300M was introduced either very shortly
before or after the merger. For most (or practically all) of the
300M's life, Chrysler HAD a strong European "partner" (owner,
really). Did it do any LH car any good? No. Why should that change
now?

If Voyagers or Jeeps had any over-lap with Merc models then you can be
sure that Daimler wouldn't sell them in Europe or anywhere else other
than North America.

I've been saying that for a year now.

Hatchback? What is that guy smoking?

Again with the saloon. Where the f*ck does that term come from?

A saloon is where you went for a drink and a gun fight a hundred years
ago.

Was that the generation that suffered horrendously from quality issues
that put Mercedes at the back of the pack in quality rankings?

Huh? I thought the 5.7L hemi was 3 or 4 valves-per-cylinder. You
mean it's not?

Yes. Especially since it prevented Chrysler from getting extra value
from it's LH design by evolving the LH into the RWD platform it was
designed to handle. Especially since it prevented Chrysler from
turning the truly stunning 300N concept into a production car by late
2001.

This is from a UK writer. What American cars does he see anyways?
He's obviously never seen the inside of a 300M - note he makes NO
comparison between the M and C.

 

Just a minor cavil if I may. If Ford and Jaguar develop a platform
which they introduce at the same time, serving different ends
(S-Type/LS/T-bird) that's one thing.

If you take an existing model and use a lot of its parts to create a
new one, it's fairer to draw a line between them. The Crossfire is
clearly a rebodied SLK. That doesn't make it a Mercedes, but it makes
it a very close cousin at least.

The question is, what percentage of parts does the 300C share with
the outgoing E?

Isn't *any* E, really, even the E200K or whatever the entry-level is
over there?

 

Sure... Simca.

PT Cruiser, which is the best-selling Chrysler in Europe, I
think.

Aw, come on.

It's a 2-valve pushrod motor.

The Cadillac STS, Corvette, Viper, Neon, Voyager, and the outgoing
Camaro were all sold in the UK.

 

My 360 Dodge ate ballast resistors like a 5 year-old eats candy. In
fact, I made sure I ALWAYS had a spare in the glove box.

The Holley 2 barrels that Chrylser used were, in my expirences, junk
too.

Mine have metal.

Of course, modern engines are more costly to fix. Look at the
standards the modern engines have to meet. In comparision, the 60's
stuff had just about zero polution standards. You don't get from
grossly poluting to nearly pollution free, for free.

Whoa! You're calling modern cars disposible. In the midwest, the
60's cars had major rust holes in about 5 years, had body panels
flapping in the breeze in less than 10 years, and anymore than 10
years you were driving a Fred Flintstonemoblie. Not to mention the
rings, lifters, and exhaust systems that quickly gave out.

After more than 20 years the Big Three are still trying to catch up to
Toyota. The Big Three have improved a lot since the 60's in quality,
but even today they're still a step or so behind the Japanese leaders.
(Note: Not all Japanese manufactures are quality leaders. Your Eagle
Vision Mitsubishi is a good example. You should have bought a
Mitsubishi that has their stout 2-liter 4 cylinder engine.)

Here's a little clip on GM (Big Three mentality) compared to Toyota's.

---------
GM will continue to push initial quality, but it is taking several
steps to improve perceived and long-term quality, Williams says.

Last year, it hired retired Toyota executive Tatsuhiko Yoshimura, an
expert in vehicle durability, to critique GM's sourcing,
decision-making, and testing and validation procedures. Yoshimura has
prodded GM to change its validation criteria.

Where GM had tested to the warranty mileage limit, now it "tests until
failure," Williams says. The effort is meant to ensure that vehicles
have "world-class quality and durability throughout their whole useful
life," he says.

"It's a cultural shift," Williams says. "It's a different mindset for
our organization."

GM also is examining 33 key components that account for 75 percent of
its warranty costs. Top-quality parts go onto the global bill of
approved materials; poor parts are dropped.
---------

Obviously they couldn't find the weakness in the flow of the heads and
the poorly designed cams. What makes you think they saved their
design wizardry for the rest of the engine?

The 30 plus years have fogged your memory.

Besides all the other ones I listed - the 350 & 307 Chevy, 360
Chrysler, 304 AMC and the Hemi cars?

Okay, how 'bout some early Chevy small blocks that had cams made of
too soft of metal? Or read the current issue of C&D... the guys '69
Boss Mustang was pulled apart so many in his 4 years of ownership (in
the early 70's) he had the rebuilding process memorized. Or read Jim
Wangner's (the GTO guy) recent book. He has a good story in it about
60's Chrysler quality. I'll look for this story tomorrow.

Finding examples of problems with the new cars is much eaiser. Today
you have 1,000 different news sources just a mouse click away. To
find problems with the 60's stuff you have to first find and then look
through 30 year-old road tests.

True; however, do you think they were spending a ton more on engine
parts/design than they were on their [cheap] vinyl interiors?

Your 66's vinyl seats are not completely shredded? The dashboard
isn't sun faded and cracked? Are the gauges/clock still working?
There isn't tons of air leaks around the windows? The trunk
doesn't/hasn't leaked?

My brother's '72 Chevelle had a front bumper that sort turned gray and
then peeled. My friend's '73 Vette rear bumpers needed to be
rechromed in only 7 years. Chrome parts always pit. I could never
understand why they used chrome.

That's not saying much. The 318 was a grocery getter.

But with tiny valves for such a large-displacement engine.

Yep, it was a short-stroke big-bore small block. It was a runner.

They used a big crank (cast) in an effort to give it some snap, but
didn't complete the job because they used small valves and a weak cam.
If they would have at least got the W-2 heads into production, the
360 could have been at least decent.

Exactly. That's why Toyota continues to gobble up the Big Three's
marketshare.

Patrick

 

Still applies (to cars) today for Rapp "artists".

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

In the Netherlands the 300M, 3.5i V6 LE costs a bit over E 56,000.-
This is roughly $ 68,000.- and the price is with all taxes included.
Joe Average would have to save every penny to be able to buy the car in
3 to 4 years (after taxes).
Most Joe Averages though drive cars with are about E 20,000.-
That car will have a 1.4 or even 1.6 (sporty!) engine which will do
0-100 km (0-60mph) in about 13 seconds.
The car will have a top speed of 175km (110mph).

There were about 700 300M's sold in the Netherlands. That is on a total
population of 16 million people.

Martin

P.S. DAS: the Golf GTi (1.8 with compressor) is faster then my Stratus 2.5V6.
My car is faster on the first 40 meters but after that... :/

 

After more than 20 years the Big Three are still trying to catch up to

"Quality" is a perception, tempered by knowledge. Your knowledge is clearly
suspect here, Mr. "Eagle Vision Mitsubishi". I assert your perception of
quality is questionable as well.

--Geoff

 

Uh - is Simca a city, a town, or a type of car?

Um, now that's got to be wrong. Doesn't "saloon" refer to what we in
north america would call a "large sedan" ??? If so, there's no way a
Neon is a "saloon". And I think it's a stupid term anyways.

What a dog's breakfast assortment. Still, the guy should have
compared the interior of the C to that of the M (or other recent LH
vehicles) before he makes a statement about the current (or previous)
state of american (or Chrysler) vehicle interiors.

 

Poking fun at the US is almost mandatory for UK auto writers. One of
my favorite US car comments came from CAR which, referring to the
outgoing Camaro, said it had "shutlines a horse could make love to".

 

Yippee. Another "automotive" publication that ASSumes "complicated" is a
synonym of "works better."

And something of an embarassment to Stuttgart in that it outperforms
their "multi-valve marvels" no doubt. At least I suppose they can still
dismiss it with a sneer, a wave of the hand, and "oh, well it only
produces 1 HP per cubic inch." As if that actually MATTERS to the
driver...other than meaning much better reliability and lower component
stress.

MThe 5.7 Hemi is, and always has been, a TRUE HEMI. That MEANS two
valves per cylinder. 4 valves imply a pent-roof chamber, not a Hemi. 3
valves mean a Stuttgart loser. It also is a pushrod engine, but that is
neither here nor there as you can have an OHC true hemi if you want to
do it.

 

Ah, so you're drawing a trend from a single data point. Makes it pretty
easy to do, I guess. The results are questionable....

So why didn't you ever replace the coil, since it obviously had a few
primary turns shorted and was overloading the ballast resistor?

Yep. That's why only a small percentage of Chryslers actually used
Holley carbs.

They are. I just found out this morning that the throttle cable for the
93-96 LH series cars is NS-1 (that's Chrysler-speak for "we don't make
it anymore, and we're sold out") That's a company thinking of a car as
disposable. I remember buying a factory throttle cable for my '73 in
about '93. I still drive the '73 with over 430,000 miles on it, there's
no WAY that parts will be available to keep my 93 going that long. Its
patently asinine when you can't get a factory part for a car less than 8
years old, as a 96 model would be.

If you mean "catch up to" as in "make our cars as throw-away as theirs,"
then unfortunately I agree that they are moving that way. Not quite
there YET, but moving that way.

You are genuinely clueless. You obviously don't even know what an Eagle
Vision IS.

Hint: it aint a POS Mitsushitti, its made in Bramlea Ontario with >90%
US parts...it is mechanically identical to the Dodge Intrepid and
Chrysler Concorde, which is the only reason it is still operating with
over 200k miles on it.

 

If they would have at least got the W-2 heads into production, the

I don't think you know very much about small block Mopars. The W2 heads you
refer to are a race only piece and were never intended for production
vehicles. And yes they make a 360 at least decent. That is if you consider
600 plus horsepower decent.

The 360 gets a bad rap because it was saddled with smog equipment and low
compression due to federal mandate. A properly built 360 will make more
power than a 340. They are in my opinion very durable and reliable, though
not perfect (what is? Not Toyota, etc.) it is an excellent engine.

 

Have you ever climbed into the "average" car in Europe?

Travelled across a country in one (well Switzerland isn't much of a
country, is it)?

A Neon is a large sedan!!!!

Dan

 

Mopar Man has to ask what a Simca is? Oh My!

Check out http://www.centuryinter.net/SIMCA/page2.html for a little
history on the car.

Steve B.

 

Anyone see the new Audi A6? The grill is just about a copy of the 300
style. Looks like Chrysler has started a trend with the butt-ugly front
end.


Matt