Use of ethanol in Chrysler products

Why would fleets of vehicles be converted to ethanol? The infrastructure
doesn't exist.

Really, if you had just read the article it would have saved you from typing
this. You are determined that you are right even though you refuse to
educate yourself about the subject. You are welcomed to your opinions and
if you wish to be ignorant so be it.

I think you need to re-read the article. There is a link to the Paul Dana
Motorsports site that clearly explains what fuels are used and will be used
at Indy.

 

Did they test E85 or straight ethanol?

 

Brazil has the most experience of operating vehicles on ethanol, and
the determined researcher will look to their experience.

Any engine that has a BSFC as good on E85 as on gasoline is a
seriously misdesigned one. There is, as a point of interest, just such
an engine in existence-the air cooled, horizontally opposed high
compression Lycoming aircraft engine. Because there is a Supplemental
Type Certificate allowing for legal use of ethanol fuel in certain
Lycoming engines in certain airframes, a significant collection of data
points exists.

 

How so?

 

So the answer is 'no'. See how much time I saved?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Gosh, Rick, you're the one with all the answers. What's the matter, there,
ace? Cat got your tongue?

 

You post outrageous statements without evidence and then demand I
provide proof? I'm not your research assistant.

 

Your claim is so ludicrous it's not worth responding to in detail. If
you want to know why, look up the energy density of ethanol or methanol
and compare and contrast with that of pump gasoline. On a per gallon
basis there's quite a bit of difference. Therefore an engine may be
running *more* efficiently on *thanol but will still show lower
efficiency on a MPG basis than gasoline. Any mechanical improvements
in efficiency will skew the numbers for *both* fuels, thus *thanol will
always be at a disadvantage.

This, incidentally, is also the reason that stoichiometric for *thanol
is *not* 14.7:1 as it is for gasoline. It takes a *lot* more *thanol
to 100% utilize the same volume of O2 as it does gasoline.

nate

 

Because there is more energy per unit volume with gasoline than there is
with E85, so if BFSC doesn't go DOWN with a switch to E85, then it was
seriously too high on straight gasoline.

 

The same arguement has been used against LP gas - but because of the
higher octane rating of LP, an engine optimized for LP (higher
compression and different valve timing) can deliver more crankshaft
horsepower per gallon of fuel burned on LP than on Gasoline. Even
without changing cam timing, you CAN get the same power output

I suspect the same would be true of Ethanol, as it also has a higher
octane rating, does it not?

Run advanced timing, higher compression, and higher operating
temperature - then all you need to warry about is NoX. So you need a
good reduction catalyst ----.

 

Except that the added oxygen from the ethanol will keep the
reduction bed in the catalyst from working.

 

Well, I can definately tell which of you own stock in an oil company
and which does not.

The common rumor, and I say RUMOR, is that ethanol is highly corrosive.
Methanol is highly corrosive, ethanol is not. Granted that it is
harsher on pre 80s automotive rubber seals that are designed for
gasoline only use, but to say that it will eat aluminum and plastics is
often disproved when the one saying this comment goes and buys an
aluminum keg of beer, then pours it in a plastic cup and drinks it!

Ok, we all realize that ethanol has less BTU than gasoline and
resulting mileage loss on an low compression engine, but the power
potential of ethanol makes it a highly desirable fuel. With proper
engine enhancements, the 103 octane rating of E85 can make an engine
outperform any gasoline counterpart with nearly the exact same mileage.
For example, the Ford Mustang FFV Super Stallion will make 50 more
horsepower on E85 than it does with straight unleaded.

The simple fact is, ethanol is a renewable fuel and the technological
advancement in fermenting and distilling is approaching to the point to
where ethanol is currently competitive with gasoline, no IFs, ANDs, or
BUTs about it. When the April 05 Midwest quote of fuel grade and
distilled ethanol is $44/barrel where unrefined raw crude oil was at
$56/barrel, well it doesn't take a genious to figure out the economics
of this renewable fuel. Anyone who disagrees is either close minded and
uneducated or is gullable to the words spoken by those who have the
most to loose from the advancement in the bio-fuels industry.

Mgrant

 

Not if the mixture is optimized so there is no extra oxygen left over
- use it all to burn the fuel.

 

Starting your post off with a conspiracy theory does little for your
credibility.

Making a self-contradictory statement like this further erodes your
credibility. The volume BTU content of a liquid fuel *IS* its "power
potential."

Octane rating does not equal "power potential".

That is quite debatable.

IF the heavy subsidies for fuel ethanol are allowed to expire in a few
years as is currently scheduled to occur, AND ethanol remains even
remotely competitive with gasoline, then you'll have a point. BUT, either
the subsidies will be renewed or ethanol's feasibility will go "kerFLUSH",
so your point is moot.

 

Disregarding the "military Subsidy" enjoyed by petroleum, if the
ethanol industry, including American Farmers, did not recieve a
subsidy, the overall cost, and fuel savings, from using ethanol very
quickly become non-competetive in today's world.
Making ethanol from food grains (corn, barley, wheet, etc) requires
almost as much energy input as you get out of the resulting fuel. The
natural gas used to make the fertilizer used to grow the corn, plus
the fuel required to prepair the soil, plant the crop, keep it
relatively weed free, and harvest it, and the energy required to
process and distill the mash adds up pretty quickly.

If you can use waste products from the food crop, the situation gets a
lot better, but the same part of corn is used for livestock feed, food
grain, and industrial feedstocks (sugars, starches, oils, etc) and
running a compression ignition engine on corn oil is likely just as
cost effective, as well as renewable, as running ethanol in a spark
ignition engine.

The un-avoidable truth is the day of the "infernal combustion engine"
is rapidly coming to a close.Fuel cell electrics, whether fed from
alcohols, hydrogen, or some other fuel, appear to be the near-term
alternative, with electricity from some as-yet-undeveloped source,
combined with new battery technology running a close second.

 

That the best ya got?

 

Is it a conspiracy or just plain old capitalism? Why, the big oil company's
would never discredit or try to eliminate any competition would they? No
they just have consumers best interests in mind, right?

No, but an eninge with higher compression and more timing will make more
power and have better economy.

I think you're trolling now, stern.

 

You are the one that has made blanket statements without proof of any kind.
Just opinions. I have at least provided a link to a web site that backs up
my position. Before you dismiss it out of hand you should at least read it,
if you are at all interested in contributing to the discussion in a
meaningful way. At any rate if you have some information that disputes the
facts as I have presented them then I am more than willing to look at it. I
have a real interest in the topic and would consider all informed opinions.
I await your reply.

 

You must be a auto fuel expert or a chemical engineer. I bow to your
superior knowledge.

 

Ok i use ethanol gas from sunoco and regular gas from other stations.My
car runs better on sunoco gas and mpg is no better or worse than gas
from other stations. i see alot of cars at sunoco stations .So i guess
ethanol is not bad like some people say.