UAE acquired $1 billion stake in DaimlerChrysler in 2005

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by MoPar Man, Feb 25, 2006.

  1. MoPar Man

    MoPar Man Guest

    With all the talk of the US selling it's eastern seaboard port
    operations to a company owned by the UAE, I thought the following
    nugget regarding DCX was interesting.

    It used to be that OPEC countries would spend their petro dollars to
    buy US military stuff. Seems they're turning away from those toys and
    just buying up the USA, one piece at a time.

    ------------------------

    http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/default.asp?cntDisplay=10&ID=12

    UAE will buy overseas assets with oil gains
    posted on 21/11/2005

    The UAE plans to increase its investment from surging oil income by
    buying more overseas assets and boosting infrastructure to attract
    foreign capital inflows, said Sheikha Lubna Al Qasimi, Minister of
    Economy and Planning. She said the global economy must stand ready to
    tackle rising inflation from the high oil prices to sustain growth.

    The energy sector in the UAE accounts for about a third of the
    economy, less than for many of its neighbours, but profits soaring
    from oil prices are pouring into stock and property markets, powering
    an economic boom and feeding inflation.

    At the same time, the government is buying international assets,
    buying Tussauds Group, home to the famous waxwork museums, and
    acquiring a US$1 billion stake in DaimlerChrysler earlier this year.
    When asked if the country will continue to look for overseas
    investment opportunities, she said, "Of course. In the US, sometimes
    you have great deals because opportunities are there and your money is
    viable to go for that kind of investment.
     
    MoPar Man, Feb 25, 2006
    #1
  2. As long as they are buying company stock that's fine with me. Property
    is a bit dicy, but most overseas investors like that buy high dollar
    properties
    like skyscrapers and such, and very few people can afford those anyhow.

    Stock is nothing more than a rich man's gamble. DCX could have a 10
    year period of making cars nobody wants, like Ford is doing, and become
    worthless. Then what does the UAE end up with - nothing but worthless
    paper.

    We want them spending petro dollars here. That is what puts money
    back into the economy to replace the money we sent to them to buy
    their oil.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Feb 26, 2006
    #2
  3. MoPar Man

    MoPar Man Guest

    Buying stock doesn't really help the USA or the company to which the
    stock belongs (unless it's new stock issue I suppose).

    Buying US-built vehicles (preferrably from a US-owned company) - now
    that would help.

    I suppose that Haliburton gets a good slice of Opec business.
     
    MoPar Man, Feb 26, 2006
    #3
  4. MoPar Man

    MoPar Man Guest

    They're acquiring a British company's interests in the US ports. A
    transaction that's not likely to inject (new) money into the US
    economy.

    And there's more:

    http://upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060223-051657-4981r

    UAE terminal takeover extends to 21 ports
    By PAMELA HESS
    UPI Pentagon Correspondent

    WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 (UPI) -- A United Arab Emirates government-owned
    company is poised to take over port terminal operations in 21 American
    ports, far more than the six widely reported.

    The Bush administration has approved the takeover of British-owned
    Peninsular & Oriental Steam Navigation Co. to DP World, a deal set to
    go forward March 2 unless Congress intervenes.

    P&O is the parent company of P&O Ports North America, which leases
    terminals for the import and export and loading and unloading and
    security of cargo in 21 ports, 11 on the East Coast, ranging from
    Portland, Maine to Miami, Florida, and 10 on the Gulf Coast, from
    Gulfport, Miss., to Corpus Christi, Texas, according to the company's
    Web site.

    President George W. Bush on Tuesday threatened to veto any legislation
    designed to stall the handover.

    "...the deal was reported on in major newspapers as early as last
    October. But it did not get critical attention in the press until the
    Associated Press broke the story Feb. 11 and the Center for Security
    Policy, a right-leaning organization, wrote about it Feb. 13."

    ----------

    A different slant on this pertains to how a story like that gets
    traction in the mainstream media. I really think that web sites like
    Drudge are playing larger and larger roles in driving the stories that
    get traction these days. Drudge decides what's news-worthy, and the
    big news players feel compelled to follow along. You want to know
    that stories will be shown on the network news at 6:30 pm? Just look
    at drudge's web site earlier in the day.
     
    MoPar Man, Feb 26, 2006
    #4
  5. True but it's not going to take any more out of it, either. It's a rather
    benign transaction. I was referring more to the comment about buying
    up the US, than this particular transaction.

    Don't you know that the billionaires of the world all go to the same clubs
    and sit around playing cards with each other? Ownerships of things like
    this are passed around like playing cards. This year it's UAE, the next
    year
    it will be some Italian firm. It makes little difference to us most of the
    time.
    I'm actually glad to read this for a couple reasons. First, I agree with
    Bush
    that it's not a security risk and that it's not fair to shitcan the deal.
    But
    more than that, I dislike Bush and I want to see him piss away political
    capital on frittery stuff like this.

    It would be no skin off Bush's nose to step back and let Congress
    shitcan this deal. DP World isn't going to fight Congress, and some of
    the most pissed-off people on this deal are the staunchest Conservatives
    that supported Bush to begin with. Bush's threatening a veto is one
    of the stupider moves he's made. All it does is make Bush look like
    a moderate Republican and thus creates division within the Republican
    party with the conservatives against the moderates.

    The ultra conservatives have committed to their constitutes to be
    as hard as possible on terrorism, and they cannot back down on
    this without losing support. If Bush wins, the ultraconservatives
    in the Republican party will be weakened, and they will want revenge
    against Bush. That's good from my point of view since I think
    the ultraconservatives are the worst members of the Republican
    party. If Bush loses, it make him look weaker as a President
    and that emboldens the Democrats and the moderate Republicans.
    So, either way this plays out, my side wins.
    It's not just them. These stories are timed to be released for certain
    reasons.

    Remember, this is an election year, and right now is when the candidates
    are just getting rolling putting together their platforms and such and
    running
    around and getting support. This story was tailor made for the conservative
    candidates to help them. The idea was Bush would have said something
    like the "sneaky beaureaucrats tried to slide this deal in under my nose"
    and it would have given all those conservative candidates plenty of
    fodder to rail on and on against the career beaureaucrats who are
    running wild, etc. You know, the usual boring old conservative pablum.

    What I think took everyone by surprise is Bush defending the UAE.
    It is really an amazingly stupid thing because now all those conservative
    party supporters are going to be asking their conservative candidates
    about it, and those candidates are going to be put in the bad position of
    saying on one hand, Bush is doing the wrong thing, but on the other,
    hey the Republicans are this wise and wonderful party and you really
    need to vote Republican.

    Makes me wonder if old Karl Rove has had a heart attack or something
    that we don't know about. But then again, Bush has never had much
    interest in insuring a Republican succeeding him in office, if he did, he
    would have chose a more electable vice president than Chaney.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Feb 27, 2006
    #5
  6. MoPar Man

    Bill Putney Guest

    Maybe and maybe not. We'll never *really* know until after the fact.
    On the down side - remember when Clinton had OBL in our sites, and we
    didn't pull the trigger becaue their was Arab royalty in the area and we
    didn't want that potential collateral damage? Guess who the royalty
    was? Top brass of UAE. We secretly got a message to them what we were
    trying to do and to get the hell out of the way. They responded by
    getting the hell out of the way, but not before tipping OBL off, and he
    escaped. (This is all spelled out in the 9/11 report.)
    On the other hand, the UAE is somewhat of an ally in the every-day sense
    of the word. They buy lots of commerical planes from the U.S., donated
    many millions of dollars to Katrina relief (truly altruisitc or purely a
    good overall political and economic decision? - that could of course be
    an intense debate in itself), and interact in our economy in big ways.
    But can we trust them when the chips are down in a post-9/11 world?
    Maybe we can, maybe we can't - we will never truly know 'til
    after-the-fact. This is one of those situations where you have to make
    one decision or the other without having a real good feel about it
    either way. There will be serious economic and political implications
    *either* way. It is a very tough decision *IF* ones interest is what's
    in the best interest of the U.S.
    That's the whole problem with the country right now. People, including
    many of our politicians and public figures, and apparently you, put
    blinders on about what's best for the country and primarily do whatever
    suits their political agenda and who's image and career they want to
    crush at the moment.

    I have very mixed feelings on this issue, but my decision criteria are
    clearly different than yours. Most days I think that we should err on
    the side of safety and kill the deal - but I also realize that there
    would be serious political and economic unintended consequences that we
    may have to absorb. But whichever way we go, we need to have our eyes
    open about the negative implications of that decision - and there will
    be some serious ones either way.

    Bill Putney
    (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
    address with the letter 'x')
     
    Bill Putney, Feb 27, 2006
    #6
  7. I am not quite clear what is so special about this. The investment funds of
    the oil states have been investing in western assets for decades (where else
    could they invest anyway?). The KIO (Kuwait Investment Office) used to
    (still does?) own a substantial chunk of Daimler-Benz. So?

    Just means mutual dependence. Not such a bad thing.

    DAS

    For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
     
    Dori A Schmetterling, Feb 27, 2006
    #7
  8. MoPar Man

    MoPar Man Guest

    Some of you that are not exposed to domestic US news coverage may not
    fully realize the following.

    US media and news networks have been beating the terrorism drum ever
    since 9/11. The rhetoric and policies (domestic and int'l) of the
    Bush admin has been feeding into this drum beat (because it serves
    them).

    One aspect of news coverage is the periodic stories of
    security-related issues at large shipping ports. Every man, women,
    and child in the US knows by know that only 4% of cargo containers
    gets inspected, for example. The fact that practically no air-cargo
    put on commercial airliners by shipping companies is screened is also
    widely and periodically reported.

    Bush never fails to remind people at any and all speaking engagements
    (regardless of the topic or setting) that the US was attacked on 9/11
    and is still "at war". The US has developed a collective distrust (if
    not loathing) of all things arab, muslim, etc. Be it arab people,
    their religion, their culture, their intentions, their countries,
    their leaders, etc.

    So collectively, Americans know that US ports remain vulnerable from a
    terrorism point of view. The US president continues to say they are
    at war. To many Americans, they are at war with arabs or muslims.
    The media has dutifully informed Americans that 2 of the 9-11
    hijackers came from UAE, and that the UAE was a mediator of funds
    transfered to the 9-11 hijackers in the US.

    The awarding of oversight/control/operations of (many) US ports to an
    Arab company could not illustrate any better a complete collision
    between the security and priority perceptions of US citizens vs their
    political masters.

    The US news media like a bulldog with a bone on this issue. This
    could be pay-back for the fact they were shut-out of the initial
    coverage of the Cheney gun-shot event.

    But the issue has traction, possibly because of the mid-term
    congressional and senate elections that are about a year away, and
    sitting republicans are vulnerable to a growing public backlash
    against the Bush admin. If the public doesn't like how the Bush admin
    handles this UAE/port thing (among many things), it is sitting
    republican congressmen who will lose (at the polls).

    I'm listening to Lou Dobbs right now, and he's questioning/attacking
    this UAE thing from every possible angle. You people outside the
    USA/Canada don't see the same CNN that we see.
     
    MoPar Man, Feb 27, 2006
    #8
  9. I haven't read that but I don't doubt it. In any case, I would be surprised
    if
    OBL didn't have a spy or two in the diplomatic offices of every major
    Arab state, so I would suspect that even if the top brass at UAE didn't
    tip off OBL deliberately, that it would have been spied out.
    No it's not. If UAE comes in and starts wrecking port security, there
    will be plenty of watchdogs both within and outside of government that
    will be pointing it out. They could easily be legislated right out of the
    country so obviously the risk is minimal for us. In fact, they take a lot
    more risk since once they have a stake here, if they screw up
    and are forced out, they will be firesaling those ports and losing money.

    I would also guess that within 10 years UAE will sell the ports to
    someone else anyway. You know how investors are, there is always
    a better investment on the other side of the fence. It's just not in
    their nature to put their money into a good investment and sit on it
    the rest of their lives.
    Bill, that example is set by the very top. What would be best for the
    country is to put in some moderate Supreme Court justices, not a bunch
    of political hacks like the President just got finished doing. What would
    be best for the country was once our objective of catching Saddam in
    Iraq was met, that we got the hell out and let the factions self-determine
    their own future. So they seem to want to fight a civil war over it,
    well both sides want to kill each other, it's not our right to tell them
    they can't do it, any more than it is their right to tell us we shouldn't
    be settling our differences nonviolently. We chose civil war ourselves
    about 150 years ago after all. It was one thing when it was
    Saddam opressing his own people - well those people aren't opressed
    anymore, we are done. We need to git.

    If Bush was really more willing to work with the Democrats in Washington
    and actually did it, and made a few concessions, then so many of the
    politicians and public figures wouldn't be out there doing what suits
    their political agenda and working to crush him at the expense of the
    best interests of the country.
    My criteria are the same as the Presidents, actually. Observing how
    Bush works, he has clearly extracted a bunch of secret concessions out
    of UAE that the general public doesen't know about in exchange for
    approval on the deal. Since Bush seems to like spying so much, my
    guess is he got carte-blanche to roam through all the employement
    and personnel records of every port employee in every port that
    UAE takes over, without having to get a warrant.

    What your going to see in the next month is all the high-ups in
    Congress both the Republican high-ups and a few Democrat
    high-ups are going to be brought into Bush's little secret war
    room and told exactly what those concessions are. Then those
    people will suddenly lose stomach for continuing the argument,
    and will go try to stomp on the younger members of their parties
    to shut them up, and the whole thing will end up being slid
    through under the carpet.

    In short, this deal was purely a political deal for the President,
    just as I'm looking at it as a great political deal for the Democrats.
    Since the general public cannot be told about the secret concessions,
    the out-of-office Democratic politicians will be free to slap the
    officholding Republicans around during the next election, and those
    people will be unable to answer the charges.

    Now, is it a good thing for the country in the long run to have these
    kinds of secret deals? Well that depends on what you regard as
    National Security. My observation over the years is that government
    officials on both sides of the aisle are very quick to use the excuse
    of National Security to hide wrongdoing. I simply do not have faith
    in secret deals like this being policed by the very people involved in
    the secret. That is why I like to see incumbents tossed out of office
    on a regular basis. Naturally I would rather see incumbent Democrats
    be replaced by new up and coming Democrats.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Feb 28, 2006
    #9
  10. All that is true.
    That is not true.
    This isn't true either. What it could not illustrate better is a complete
    collision between what security priorities are of US POLITICIANS
    that they are telling the US citizens, and what they are actually DOING.

    Ever since Watergate, US citizens have been very sensitive to political
    leaders who say one thing and do another. The reason that this is
    big news here now is that it is an election year and all the politicians
    up for reelection are being put under a magnifying glass.

    All of this is a Good Thing, by the way. It may also happen that
    this is the last straw for the people for some of those politicians,
    and as a result some people won't be reelected. This is also a Good
    Thing.
    They are 9 months away, not 12.
    But you also forget that there's a lot of pent up frustration with the
    continued practice of outsourcing. There are a lot of lower economic
    people who lost good jobs due to those jobs going to India. Now you
    can argue all you want that the US economy is no longer willing to
    pay a premium for a blue collar telemarketer sitting in a phone bank
    all day long, and those jobs were going to go away anyhow, but
    this is lost on these people. All they know is that the job they were doing
    and getting paid 10%+minimum, is now gone and they either have to
    go on food stamps, or try to retrain. And besides those people there's
    a lot of union people that lost jobs and had to take lower paying ones,
    and a lot of blue collar technology workers in the same boat, etc.

    I think that people in this boat might be taking some comfort from the
    fact that while their job went to India, at least the profits from the job
    are going to an American country. But now they are hearing not only
    are the jobs going overseas, now the profits are too. And at the back
    of everyone's mind is the fear that pretty soon, there won't be much
    of an economy left in the US.

    Of course, that doesen't stop them from running out and buying the
    latest Made in China electronic toy. I would bet money that there
    is not a single piece of American-made electronics in between Lou
    Dobbs microphone, and the picture tube his pablum is being displayed
    on to the masses.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Feb 28, 2006
    #10
  11. MoPar Man

    Taylor Guest

    Huh? Need to get you up to speed here. "The US" is not selling
    anything. A British Company (P&O, formerly Penninsular & Oriental which
    ran the Princess Cruise line, among many other ventures) is being acquired
    by a UAE company. This British Company, P&O, happens to have concessions
    for the operations of several ports that are located in the United
    States. P&O acquired these concessions in the late 1990s. Some other
    ports in the US have operating concessions held by other countries,
    including China.

    It looks like the UAE company knows a good investment when it sees one.
    If you're afraid of UAE, (which services the most US Navy ships outside of
    US ports), consider something far worse, it could be the American company
    Wal-Mart gaining the concessions! :)
     
    Taylor, Mar 8, 2006
    #11
  12. MoPar Man

    Taylor Guest

    It's not a big deal, other than ignorance of the deal ("The US is selling its
    ports!!") is being used for political gain by numerous interests. Knowledge is
    the antidote.
     
    Taylor, Mar 8, 2006
    #12
  13. MoPar Man

    Taylor Guest

    Actually he was asked what would he do if a bill to prevent this was presented
    before him. He answered the question in a way that I believe was direct and
    honest, he said he would veto it. It's not the first time he's said he would
    veto something, even though he hasn't had to go through with that yet.
    Hmm, interesting that the Democrats (e.g. Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, Charles
    Schumer) are in complete agreement with those "ultra conservatives" you disdain
    so much.
    "Ultra conservative" today means that you don't think illegal aliens should be
    given carte-blanche to avoid the law and you believe allowing citizens to keep
    more of their money in their pockets so they can spend or save it as they feel
    fit is good for the economy.
    That's swell. So ignorance and/or stupidity is good for "your side." At least
    you admit it, many others will not. Unfortunately a lot others think like you
    and like to propagate more ignorance for political gain. The Clintons, for
    example, aren't even going to stop with that. While Hillary is shouting how
    terrible UAE is, Bill is cashing the big checks he receives for advising UAE how
    to do business in USA.
     
    Taylor, Mar 8, 2006
    #13
  14. MoPar Man

    Taylor Guest

    If you're going to campaign against outsourcing and put up walls, remember you
    are also campaigning against insourcing and your walls will stop that as well.
    The USA "gains" far more from insourcing than it "loses" from outsourcing, so be
    Very Careful what you wish for. Can't have it both ways. It was hard for India
    when they lost a huge handmade cloth industry to giant textile mills in England
    as the Industrial Revolution got underway. Somehow they figured out how to
    reinvent themselves, and so will others.
     
    Taylor, Mar 8, 2006
    #14
  15. MoPar Man

    Taylor Guest

    Huh? Where are these "hacks" that you are referring to? Justice Roberts?
    Justice Alito? Have there ever been supreme court candidates with higher
    qualifications? They both have impressive credentials and extremely successful
    careers. You make the charge of hack, when have they ever worked for Bush? I
    know, it's a horrible thing when judges follow the law and then detail exactly
    what their line of reasoning was. By the treatment they both received from the
    likes of Messrs Schumer and Kennedy you'd think they were just short of child
    molesters. If you're concerned with "hacks," than I am curious what you thought
    of when Bill Clinton nominated a very liberal judge named Ruth Ginsburg, who was
    also top lawyer of the uber liveral ACLU. Oh yeah, Republicans still
    overwhelmingly voted for her. Is Ginsburg a "hack" in your eyes too then?
    Breyer? Why not?
    Who is 'we'? I certainly wasn't around 150 years ago. But I wouldn't look at
    the USA Civil War as a model for anyone to follow. The prospect of civil war
    in Iraq is greatly overrated, although outside interests, especially Iran are
    trying hard to make it happen. They don't want a stable government in the
    neighborhood. For the most part, democracies don't fight each other and sponsor
    terrorism.
    So should USA have just left Japan right after the Emporer was toppled? Was the
    Marshall Plan a Huge Mistake in Europe after Hitler's bunker was raided? By
    following your line of reasoning, the answers to to these questions is, YES!
    Bush has tried to work with Democrats again and again and again, to a fault. He
    allowed Ted Kennedy to author the education bill that he championed. He invited
    Democrats to help out with Medicare overhall again and again. Recently
    Democrats have cheered (Cheered!) the fact that Congress still hasn't taken any
    action to prevent a massive disaster in the making with social security. Bush
    even invited certain Democrats to the White House for informal socializing and
    conversing. All he got was slurs and personal ad hominem attacks, which he
    never returned.
    "Clearly extracted a bunch of secret concessions." Of course! :)
     
    Taylor, Mar 8, 2006
    #15
  16. MoPar Man

    MoPar Man Guest

    ------------------

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002853363_islampoll09.html

    Thursday, March 9, 2006
    Islam's image fares poorly in U.S. poll
    By Claudia Deane and Darryl Fears

    The Washington Post

    WASHINGTON — As the war in Iraq grinds into its fourth year, a growing
    proportion of Americans are expressing unfavorable views of Islam, and
    a majority now say that Muslims are disproportionately prone to
    violence, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

    The poll found that nearly half of Americans — 46 percent — have a
    negative view of Islam, 7 percentage points higher than in the tense
    months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York and
    Washington, when Muslims were often targeted for violence.

    The survey comes at a time of increasing tension, as the wars in
    Afghanistan and Iraq show little sign of ending and as members of
    Congress seek to block an Arab company from managing operations at
    several American ports. Also, Americans are reading news of deadly
    protests in the Arab world over Danish cartoon depictions of the
    Muslim prophet Muhammad.

    According to the poll, the proportion of Americans who believe that
    Islam helps to stoke violence against non-Muslims has more than
    doubled since the attacks, from 14 percent in January 2002 to 33
    percent today.

    The survey also found that 1 in every 3 Americans has heard prejudiced
    comments about Muslims lately. Forty-three percent reported having
    heard negative remarks about Arabs. One in every four Americans polled
    admitted to harboring prejudice toward Muslims, the same proportion
    that expressed some personal bias against Arabs.

    Although the two groups often are linked in popular discourse, most of
    the world's Muslims are not of Arab descent. For example, the country
    with the world's largest Muslim population is Indonesia.

    A total of 1,000 randomly selected Americans were interviewed March
    2-5 for the Post-ABC News poll. The margin of sampling error for the
    overall results is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

    Americans who said they understood Islam were more likely to see the
    religion overall as peaceful and respectful. But they were no less
    likely to say it harbors harmful extremists, and they were also no
    less likely to have prejudiced feelings against Muslims themselves.

    James Zogby, president of the Washington-based Arab American
    Institute, said he is not surprised by the poll results. Politicians,
    authors and media commentators have demonized the Arab world since
    2001, he said.

    "The intensity has not abated and remains a vein that's very near the
    surface, ready to be tapped at any moment," Zogby said. "Members of
    Congress have been exploiting this over the ports issue. Radio
    commentators have been talking about it nonstop."
     
    MoPar Man, Mar 9, 2006
    #16
  17. And he's stupid for doing that. A President of all people needs to be
    circumspect.
    Bush could have just as easily said "I really can't say right now it would
    depend
    on the circumstances" and ignored further questions to pin him down.

    I have a lot of respect for a President who takes his time to formulate his
    views
    and then gets on national TV and elucidates them in a forum and setting that
    is,
    well for want of a better word, Presidential. I might disagree with those
    views
    but I definitely respect him or her.

    But I have no respect for a President who seems happy to answer serious
    foreign policy questions while walking to his golf game or while on the deck
    of
    a battle ship dressed in a flight suit that this would be the only time in
    his
    life he would put on a military uniform. If said President is on "my side"
    and
    pushing the right course of action, I would overlook it, even though I still
    would have no respect for him.

    I remember cringing when Clinton got elected and was filmed eating
    McDonalds fries and all of that, and thinking God I hope he doesen't
    screw this up.
    Yeah, well this is going to be the last time that he will be able to use
    that
    threat and be believed.
    They don't believe it's a problem any more than the President does, they
    just see
    it as an opportunity to take him down a peg. Duh.
    It also means inprisoning flag-burners and having a state-sponsored Religion
    (Christianity, of course) and not allowing people to have any privacy. And
    it also
    means running up the national debt into trillions of dollars to pay for your
    pet
    projects.

    As for illegal aliens, some of the staunchest ultra conservatives hail from
    the
    great old State of Arizona, which has some of the highest number of illegal
    aliens
    paid under the table for work.
    It's about time. The Ultraconservatives have used the American
    people's ignorance and stupidity to get their agenda passed, it's
    poetic justice to be able to get some of that agenda torn apart
    using the same techniques.
    Absolute rubbish. I personally do not propagate ignorance for political
    gain, why
    do you think I'm explaining everything? I am happy to outline the real
    reasons that politically motivate each side to do nasty things because I
    know that when you boil it all down, there are still 2 sides to the issues
    and
    the person has to choose one.

    Take abortion. I know that the biggest lie of the Republican Party on
    abortion
    is that they oppose it because they think it's baby killing. The real
    reason they
    oppose it is because the conservative Christians in the US have all decided
    that
    abortion is wrong because they have interpreted various biblical passages to
    say
    that life begins at conception, and the conservative Christians are the
    largest
    donors of money to the Republicans. But it would be a complete violation of
    the Constitutional principles of freedom to worship for the Republicans to
    say
    that they follow the Christian principles on abortion in their party plank,
    so they
    lie about it and use some euphasims.

    And the biggest lie of the Democratic Party is that they are pro choice
    because
    the role of government is not to interfere with people's private lives. The
    real reason
    they are pro choice is because they get a huge amount of support from people
    in the New Age movement, and a lot of religions, like Scientology, Wiccan
    and such, are part of this movement. People don't realize how large this
    movement
    is because it has not been around long enough to have a few major religions
    kill off all the minor ones, like what happened with Islam and Christianity
    which killed off dozens of smaller offshoots hundreds of years ago, so it
    kind
    of falls under "all those other religions" label. For example, just about
    all religious
    gay people are part of the New Age movement.

    So, in summary the Democrats and Republicans will both lie like dogs when
    arguing over abortion. But, you and I still have to choose a position. The
    fact
    that I choose the Pro Choice side because I just happen to believe that
    strange
    fantasy that government must not have rights in the bedroom, and not because
    I am a New Ager (which I am not) is not diminished by the fact that my party
    officially lies about it, and gets support from a lot of groups I consider
    threats
    (such as the Scientologists)

    I am fully aware that the folks of my side fighting the war in the trenches
    often
    will resort to lies to win battles. But, just because they are doing so,
    does not mean
    that I do so. I'll be glad to point out the lies in both my and their side,
    but just
    because both sides are lying, does not mean that you personally can abrogate
    your responsibility to make a logically based choice on an issue. You still
    must choose, even though everything anyone on either side tells you may be a
    lie.

    The Clintons, for
    In case you didn't notice Hillary and Bill don't ever seem to have talked
    all that
    much about anything of consequence.

    The simple truth is that the UAE losing the ports is a real non-issue, it
    only affects a
    few billionaires, and the billionaires in the UAE will simply spend their
    billions on some
    other investment that will be as equally rich as the ports in the US, and so
    they will
    suffer nothing. The ports have to be owned by someone, so someone else will
    buy them and the ports will also suffer nothing. This whole issue is merely
    nothing
    more than a bad card dealt at some billionaires card table somewhere. But,
    the
    loss of status of Bush is by contrast something that is amazingly important.
    You don't
    seem to understand that we have a dictator in the White House right now and
    until the US Congress shows some spine and starts pushing back on some of
    what
    he wants, we will continue to have a dictator. If it takes a few
    billionaires being
    inconvenenced at their high stakes card table to teach the US Congress that
    they
    do indeed have some powers guarenteed to them by the Constitution and are
    not
    simply an apparatus of the Executive branch, then I say absolutey fragging
    fantastic.
    No one got hurt, no one even lost any money, yet Congress has come out of
    this learning an immensely valuable lesson, which is they do in fact have a
    governing
    role to play and they need to start doing it and stop playing follow the
    leader.

    Ted
     
    Ted Mittelstaedt, Mar 12, 2006
    #17
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