The reason for the poor m.p.g. on my PT

I took the 2001 Cruiser to the garage to get the required PA
inspections. I asked them to see if they could find a reason why the
m.p.g. had severely dropped. They did. You could hardly turn the front
wheels by hand. It seems the calibers had frozen and the wheels were
"braked" all the time. I needed new calibers, new rotors and new pads.
This of course freed up the wheels and freed up my wallet from a lot of
cash. Throw in a tie rod end, cutting a lip from the rear drums, a
couple other parts and you're talking a big repair bill. The odometer
is just getting ready to turn 40K. I never put the amount of money in a
vehicle that I've put in this one before with this low mileage on it.
Well, at least I'll get those 3-4 m.p.g. back.

 

This is the reason I no longer buy Chryslers. I've had four and always
considered myself a Chrysler guy. I still have two left (a 92 and a
97)..have had a lot of trouble with both. Since then I have bought two
Hyundais....10 year warranty and have no problems yet at all.

 

Do you habitually drive with you foot on the brake pedal?

 

I was just talking on sunday with friends who made a similar point.
Their Chrysler product had more problems than they were willing to deal
with, and the dealer seemed to go out of his way to find loopholes in
the warranty that made THEM pay for repairs.* They recently bought a
Honda because the warranty listed a host of things the Chrysler warranty
would not cover.

* Most recently, a sensor, or somehing, on the tranny. Because it was
ATTACHED to the tranny instead of being IN the tranny, the dealer
claimed the warranty wouldn't cover it.

 

GM did the same thing to my on my 1995 Corsica. 60,000 km
bumper-to-bumper, and after that just "drive train". At 60,500km the
alternator blows up (like most of the GM piece of shit alternators
that they use now!). I was livid. To me an alternator is a major
engine component, and there is no way in hell that it should blow at
such low mileage. To me it is an integral part of the drive train. The
car is basically not driveable without it. BUT NO! To the weissels at
GM, the "drive train" is the engine block assembly, the tranmission,
and MAYBE the axels. Just as you state, all supporting sensors and
electrical / electronic bits are NOT covered! What HORSE SHIT.

After protracted arguements with GM, they deferred the matter to my
local dealer service manager. HE was at least willing to do SOMETHING.
He gave me the part, but I had to pay them to put it in the car. The
tow and the install was just over $100, and that ain't bad these days!

So I was happy with my local dealer, but still pissed off enough that
I simply do not buy GM products any more. Their quality has gone down
into the dummper over the last 15+ years, and I see no reason why I
should throw away my money buy supporting thier crappy cars. And,
based on GMs loss of market share over the same period, it appears
that the motoring public agrees with my sentiment! GM is now reaping
the rewards for their lack-luster designs, and their poor quality.

On another note, while on holiday, the people camping next to us had a
1952 Chevrolet with a 235 CID straight six. I asked him what mileage
he gets, figuring it must be pretty bad... 18 MPG City, 25 MPG
highway!!!!!!! I barely get that in my 2002 GC with 3.3!!!!

I have a lot of bells and whistles, but the auto industy has NOT
improved the basics in over 60 years! What a rude wake up call. And
with todays gas prices, what a slap in the face to the motoring
public!

 

____Reply Separator_____

Nope! Just use the right foot and only when I want to stop. Or slow
down.

 

I find it strange that both calipers were seized up, something had to cause
that and normally it is oil contamination in the master cylinder.

Glenn

 

You could have done worse, buy a Ford and change heater cores on a regular
basis.
(which requires removal of the entire dash board, steering wheel, air bags,
and purging/opening of the A/C system)

 

Sorry you had such trouble. I head up a PT Cruiser club with over 130
members. I've yet to hear of a problem like this. It certainly isn't
common. Most in our club will agree with me, my PT has been THE MOST
trouble free car I've owned. I will have owned my 2001 6 years in October.
Almost 90,000 miles and the only thing replaced was a PVC valve. It is as
squeek and rattle free as the day I bought it new. One member has 155,00
miles and he has had regular maintenance on it and his is as trouble free as
mine. Of these 130 members, 2 have had to have their transmissions replaced
and both were under warranty (good for them, it aint cheap).

Normal gas mileage is not wonderful. But we have members reporting
consistant gas mileage in the 23 to 28 mpg range. Us with heavier foots do
get less.

=======================

 

Likely all you needed was a new set of pads and clean and lubed caliper
pins. I had an identical issue with my Chrysler mini-van while in Florida
and a local brake shop quoted me a $1,200 charge stating that the calipers,
rotors, and pads were shot. [Let us pray for those retired folks down there
who get this treatment from service shops every day].

I drove away after rejecting their repair offer and drove to a local parts
shop. The rotors looked fine, no cracks or warps, and were still thick
enough to continue in service. In their lot I changed out the pads and lubed
the pins with synthetic brake lube and it was like new. That repair lasted
until I traded in the vehicle a year later. Cost: $62.00 and change. Time:
55 min. (By the way, even the old pads looked fine and likely could have
stayed in service). From then on I lube my caliper pins myself once a year,
an easy task.

Richard.

 

I wish I could echo your good fortune; however, I have to side with the
original poster.

My 2001 PT (delivered June 2000) has 52k miles on it and has had to have the
front brakes redone (at approx. 38k) because of sticking calipers, requiring
warped rotors to be replaced as well.

The fit and finish of my PT is the absolute best I have ever seen. But, fit
and finish is not everything; in addition to the 2 (or is it 3) recalls, my
car has seen the dealer more than any other MoPar I've had. First time was
for terrible gas mileage; dealer had no idea why. Three days later I
returned to tell him of the milage related TSB I learned of through a PTC
online group; dealer reprogrammed the computer and mileage improved quite a
bit.

Driving along one day, with about 20k miles on the car, smoke started coming
from the steering column, especially from the control stalk on the left
side. Pulled over, turned off ignition and the problem continued.
Fortunately, a dealer was not far away; with visions of my car bursting into
flames, I quickly drove the quarter-mile to a dealer, explained what was
happening and they pulled it in, repaired the problem in less than an hour,
no charge, just hassle. I wish my dealer were even half as responsive,
apparently trustworthy and competent; too bad this dealer is too distant to
become my new dealer.

Radio failed; while it would play, it could not be turned on or off (except
by turning ignition on or off) nor could the volume or station be changed.
No charge, but a hassle.

Power steering leaks fluid in cold weather, but let it warm up (like in the
dealer's service write-up area) and doesn't lose a drop. I expect the
dealer will be able to find the problem shortly after my extended warranty
is up or, it won't be covered by extended warranty.

Transmission fluid leak at 47k; dealer found it but not covered by extended
warranty.

The rear sway-bar bushings and links are shot; dealer couldn't find a
problem until the warranty was up though I first reported the problem at 33k
miles. The dealer kindly offered to repair the problems for $300 with MoPar
parts that had not been reengineered, thus are likely to fail again in 30K
miles or so.

My other vehicle is a 2004 Dakota, with 20k miles. So far, the only problem
has been poor handling initially - then I noticed the rear sway-bar (clearly
noted on the window sticker) was NOT installed. 4 weeks after ordering
them, the dealer received the parts - not the correct ones, those took
another two weeks; handling is much improved now that the sway-bar really is
on the truck.

My father worked for Chrysler for 30+ years; Chrysler products were all we
owned for my entire life (58 years) and most of them were well engineered
cars. The employee/family discount made them easy to buy; but, now, all car
makers give that pricing to anyone who walks in at the right time. Perhaps
most makers are turning out high-maintenance vehicles today; but our next
vehicle will likely be a Honda. I don't know anyone who thinks their Honda
is high-maintenance, even my ex-wife, who finds fault with everything ;-)

 

I was sitting in a Ferry line-up last year. In the lane right beside
me was a fellow who had a spanking new - driven off the lot 2 weeks
ago (at that time) PT Cruiser. It could barely run. He had the hood up
and was looking around. After some playing, he believed that he had
discovered the problem as when certain plug wires were disconnected,
there was no change in engine perfomance! Well, not that I think much
of his troubleshooting methods, but he was "FED UP". The earliest his
dealer could see him for a "warranty" look at the vehicle was 3 weeks!
Yet if you called the same dealership for "non-warranty" work, it
could be serviced the same day!

Man am I ever glad I did not live anywhere close to that dealer!

But there are lots of anecdotal stories in my general area, and the
unofficial consensus is that the PT Cruisers are "junk". Most people I
have run in to that have them would never buy them again.

Admittedly all this is second hand, but is it persistant enough, and
pervasive enough, to make me think twice about ever purchasing that
particular vehicle.

I am very glad to hear that there are people who are satisfied with
them though.

 

"Better Things for Better Living...Through Chemistry." DuPont adopted
it in 1939 and was their slogan until the 1980s when the "Through
Chemistry" bit was dropped; in 1999 it was replaced by "The miracles of
science".

Timothy Leary probably said, "Better Living Through Chemistry".

 

Sorry to hear of your opinion of PT's especially being that they had the
highest initial quality of any Chrysler in history. I see many, talk to
many, read lots of forums messages from PT groups worldwide. And that
opinion is not what most have. There have been some with problems as there
are with any car. Crapola happens. A friends Infiniti was taken back as a
lemon. There have been a couple recalls, one very minor since it involved
child car seat hook up.

Mine may disintegrate in the middle of the street tomorrow, but is has been
more than 99.9% trouble free for almost 6 years. I wouldn't hesitate to buy
another. I wish the Audi's, Volvo's, Oldsmobiles, Chevy's, Honda and
Buick's I've owned had been at least as half trouble free as my PT.

=================

 

buick was number 2 and and dc was number 6 in the most trouble free miles this
time around and Toyota was number one as it was reported on my local news

 

Anyone else here old enough to remember the Saturday Night Live skit
featuring a spokesman for the chemical industry who kept repeating a
chemical industry slogan "Without chemicals, life itself would be
impossible" (no doubt in mocking of the DuPont slogan). As the skit
progressed, the spokesman (sorry - I don't say spokes-person - sounds
effected to my ears - I'm old school), while speaking to a group of
people (maybe a group of students), asked for a drink of water, after
which someone handed him a glass of liquid identified to the man as good
old refreshing H2SO4. He drank it quickly, and as he was choking and
dropping to the floor, the person who gave him the glass said "Remember
- without chemicals, life itself would be impossible!" That was
considered humor back then on SNL. (The sixties were good to us, eh!?)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

____Reply Separator_____

I wouldn't call this a minor recall.

 

Brake jobs are gravy jobs, that is why so many people out there do them.
Tire shops, oil change places, grocery stores, you name it. And most
of them use overpriced components. And overcharge for labor.

Brakes are very, very easy to do. I've done mine for years. And I
would not let anyone else do them anyway, since most of the shops
doing them out there put their greenhorn techs on them, since they are
so easy.

Brake components are marketed along the lines of Marvel Mystery Oil
and other fancy stuff that there's no proof it does anything. I can walk
into
a el-cheapo auto parts place like AutoZone and get a Chinese-made
rotor for $30. I can get the same thing at the dealership for $150. And
the two parts look identical. They sound identical when dropped on the
floor. Yet, there's loads of people out there that claim the steel is bad
in the Chinese rotor, etc. I don't see how that is, they weigh the same,
look the same, feel the same, and wear on the car the same.

And as for brake pads, well here's how that works. Brake pads come
in ranges from soft to hard. The harder ones last a lot longer. But
they have a lot of side effects. First they are much more prone to
squealing. Second they tend to wear out the rotor faster. Third
they tend to get a lot hotter which can help warp rotors. What
people forget all the time is that brakes can only disippate kinetic
energy by heat or by sloughing off material - either material from the
pads or the rotors. But most people think they are saving money
if the pads last longer since they don't have to be changed as often
so they go for the expensive long lasting pads. Then they bitch come
brake time since now the rotors are either deeply grooved or
warped.

As for calipers, well here's the deal on them. Yes they can seize.
Most common I've seen is due to old brake fluid. Brake fluid is very
hygroscopic and will suck moisture out of the damndest places.
That moisure gets into the system and rusts the master cylinders and
caliper pistons, which then stick and seize in the bores. Well there's
two ways to fix this. First is replace the caliper. Second is to remove
the caliper, fill up the master cylinder, start pumping the brakes,
put more fluid in the cylinder, pump the brakes more, etc. As the
pressure builds up, eventually even the most stuck caliper piston
will be blown free of the bore. Across the shop floor at high velocity
unless you have had the foresight to put a shop towl in the caliper to
catch the piston when it comes out. Once the piston is out it is a
very easy matter to clean all the rust and crud out of the bore and
the piston with just clean brake fluid and a shop rag. Most of the
time you will end up with a piston that might have a few rust pits
in it. If the caliper isn't pitted too bad then it can be reassembled
and the brakes bled. Sometimes the caliper might weep a bit of
brake fluid for a bit until the seals readjust themselves. Most of
the time the caliper will end up just fine and the seals will hold and
it won't leak.

What you got to understand, though, is that cleaning up an old
caliper is what is called a "repair" Unbolting it and putting in a
brand new one is what is called a "parts swap" What the deal
here is, though, is that repairs are only done by real mechanics.
Parts swaps are what are done by the minimum-wage greenhorn
techs that most of these places employ. And if your the shop,
would you rather employ a real mechanic and pay him $40 an
hour in salary, then bill the customer 2 hours for him at a shop
rate of $60 an hour to repair a stuck caliper, or would you rather
pay a parts-changer $12 an hour for 1 hour, charge the customer
$60 an hour, and get a 20% markup on a $200 new caliper into
the bargain?

Most shops out there have figured this out by now. There are
still a few old-timey shops out there, thank God, that have a
real mechanic that owns the place, and when you call them you
get an answering machine, and when you drive around there
with your car, the guy comes out, wiping off the grease from his
hands, to take your keys and gives you a verbal estimate because
he is too busy doing work to bother with a write up. But, most
of those have disappeared and been replaced by repair shops where
you walk in and there's a receptionist behind the counter who
has never touched an engine in her life, and there's a nice waiting
room with a TV and magazines.

Ted

 

I disagree with much of what you said - see comments below.

Hey - watch it - don't dis the MMO!

You may be right in particular instances of putting a premium price on
cheap parts, but there's all kinds of variations in quality of
iron/steel and processing. If the processing (combined with the
quality/consistency of the iron/steel) leaves a lot of residual
stresses in the iron/steel, guess what's going to happen when it heats up.

You're oversimplifying. For example, the binders can be very gummy when
hot causing uneven filming of a given hard or soft pad onto the rotor
and mimicking rotor warping when the rotor is not warped at all. That's
one example.

I have never understood this claim. The laws of physics say that for a
given weight of vehicle slowed from y mph to x mph in a given amount of
time will create z amount of heat in the friction components. I have
not been able to come up with a credible explanation from the laws of
physics to explain why a harder pad will inherently create more heat
than a softer pad for the same deceleration of a given vehicle. (Saying
that one may stop the vehicle quicker or not as quick doesn't help - I'm
assuming the driver is applying whatever pedal pressure it takes to give
the desired (same) deceleration of the same vehicle in the two cases.)

And, again, given that the deceleration is the same (pedal modulation
assumed to close the loop for same deceleration), the heat generated in
the friction materials will be the same. The softer pad will have to
shed (break molecular bonds) more material than the harder pad to create
the same amount of heat (i.e. create the same deceleration, i.e.,
convert the same amount of kinetic energy).

OK - so what you're saying is that the softer pad material sheds more
easily (i.e., creates less heat) than the harder pad material under
given conditions, so the rest of the heat (to be created to burn off
energy for deceleration) has to be made up by more rotor material coming
off. Hmmm - I'll have to think about that - you may have a point.

I am of the opinion that uneven filming (crappy binders combined with
certain driving situations) is the real cause of pulsating brakes much
more than is realized (i.e., true rotor warping is not always, perhaps
seldom is, the cause).

Or by DIY'ers whose time is worth something. Say if a caliper costs
$40...? Evan a "real mechanic" on the clock may swap for new or rebuilt
in that case.

But if the caliper only costs $35-50?

Yeah - but she's a lot prettier!

I don't see many TV's in the shops around here. The magazines are
usually hot rod magazines or car repair trade magazines showing you how
to increase profits by taking on new types of repairs. And there's
always the display rack of aftermarket wheels to look at (I guess that's
why they don't have the TV - would decrease sales of wheels).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I gotta chime in on this aspect of this thread....

When I had my new Chevy Corssica, it came time to get "the brakes"
done. Brakes, as they are components that wear out through use, are
not covered on warranty unless they truly prove to be "defective'.

Well mine wore out. No surprize there.

So, since the car was still on warranty, I got GM to do the job,
merely for the sake of keeping everything "all GM". My reaosn being
that if there was a problem after this, that GM could NOT point the
finger at me and say "oh no, the problem is related to that OTHER
shop, you better go talk to them....".

GM charged me $185 (about 8 years ago) to CHANGE THE PADS (front disc
brakes). THAT WAS IT! They did NOT lubricate the calipers. They DID
NOT resurface the rotors. The ONLY thing that they did was swap in new
pads.

When I asked about the rotors, they told me that the rotors are so
thin when NEW in newer cars that they, effectively, cannot be
"resurfaced" anymore! Apparently, if you resurface them when you
replace the pads, often they are then below the "minimum thickness".
Even if they are not at the time of service, they then quickly wear
below the minimum. As they wear, they are then more prone to warping
because they cannot disapate the heat properly.

Fair enough.

When I asled about the caliper lubrication, GM considers that a
"preventive maintenance", and they wanted to charge me an extra $59.95
to do it! WHAT HORSE SHIT! What kind of idiot would simply swap pads
and not do a proper servicing of such a critical system!!!???? Answer:
A DEALER!

When it came time for the SECOND brake job (after warranty expired) I
called a few local parts stores and brake shops, and GM. One local
parts store was selling "United" brand brake parts, and that rotor was
$25.

At this time "Wagner" was selling at most places for $90 - $115
dollars each.

GMs price for a "GM" rotor (they had NO IDEA who the hell made them)
was $165 each!

When I told everyone about the $25 rotors, they all said the same
thing "OHHHH NO! Those cheap ones made in China! They will only last
about a year!"

"OK. But let us examine the facts!" I told them...

"If a GM brake job will be:

$185 for pads installed
$330 for rotors
$85 for one hour labour to install

Total $600

And by everyone's own admission the rotors are all the same physical
dimensions when new, and they are so thin that they cannot be
resurfaced....

Even a local reputable brake shop was going to charge $300 to do the
job!

If the Chinese made rotor lasts a year and costs $25, then I can
afford to install new rotors EVERY SINGLE YEAR!"

They guy at GM was so stunned he was speachless.

Compared to Wagner at an average price of $100, that is 4 new rotors,
or 4 years. That wagner part wont last 2 years.

Compared to GM $25 x 6 is $150, or 6 years. Again the GM rotor wont
last 2 years (assuming my level of vehicle useage at the time).

I did the brake job myself. As has been mentioned, EASY to do. An easy
job to do at a leisurely pace on a sunny saturday morning in my
driveway.

Costs:

2 Rotors: $50
Front Pads: $35 (mid grade)

Total Cost $85

That is 700% less than GM and 350% less than the brake shop. And you
know what? Those "cheap" chinese parts lasted as long as the Original
GM ones with NO problem whatsoever.

In the OLD DAYS, the quality of the rotor made a HUGE difference! On
my old 1979 Chevy Malibu, the FACTORY rotors were replaced at about
250,000 kms! There were MANY brake jobs done to that car, and the
rotors were resurfaced EVERY TIME. The diameter of those rotors was
over double the size. And they were almost twice as thick. They just
don't make 'em like that any more! When they did, you would be a fool
to buy "cheap" parts.

NOW.... everything is "throw away". You are crazy to buy premium
components for everyday use since, in the end, they go into the trash
bin just as fast! The main difference is the dent they make in your
wallet.

And I would not be surprized if GM was buying the chinese rotors, and
just marking them up obscenely. And most litte sheep just drive in and
get taken for a ride.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

True about the heat. However, if the pad is harder, and the hardness
of the steel in the rotor stays the same, then the result is that the
rotor will wear at an accellerated rate and the pad will wear at a
decelerated rate. The net effect is that you will wind up replacing
parts less often, but you will more than likely have to replace both
the pads AND the rotors.

In brake shop terms, pads are way cheaper than rotors. So if they can
pawn off BOTH to a customer, then they make more money.

If you do the job yourself, and use the $25 rotors, then who cares if
you have to replace them?? At that price it makes little difference.
But at brake shop prices, it makes a huge dent in your wallet, and a
great addition to their bottom line!

Yeah. There is "re-service" and "customer satisfaction" to consider -
not to mention potential safety and liability issues.

A Caliper for $35 to $50???? Who is your supplier! I want to look them
up!