The Drive-a-Toyota Act

Yeah. Too bad they're not attached to any cars by that point.

 

I hate hearing statements like that.

What that tells me is that Toyota says that when the batteries go out,
by definition you've reached the end of life of the car.

That does NOT tell me that the batteries last a long time.

 

Perhaps you should read the referenced article before commenting on one
sentence about the article.

There is no indication that the life of the batteries are a limiting
factor to the life of the car. All indications are that the batteries do
not wear out.

Jeff

 

Or a Volkswagen ad (remember "They Said It Couldn't Be Done"?)

 

Conventional wisdom says that batteries have a fairly limited life, as most
people experience with UPS devices, cell phones, and re-chargeable
batteries. The charge controller in the Prius is programmed to prevent the
battery pack from discharging or charging past the optimal range. There are
Prius in taxi service with over 200,000 miles, and Toyota has yet to sell a
replacement battery pack other than for defects during warranty coverage or
for collisions. The correct answer is "yes, the Prius battery pack has a
finite life, but none of the Prius vehicles sold has reached the end of its
useful life yet."

BTW, there are plenty of automatic transmissions with well over 200,000
miles that are still in good working condition as well.

 

Sure.

"Life of the car" for my use is 15 years and 200,000 miles. When they prove
that, I'll buy one.

 

Silly...

 

So when someone comes along who knows the technology and is skeptical
when that is bounced against an auto maker's "word" that contradicts
what is known about the technology, then that person is labeled a
"know-it-all". I guess that's one way to win an argument. Not honest,
but it is one way.

I didn't say the deep charge is a given - I threw that in as extra
information for a battrery abuse situation. Certainly - go by the 800
to 100 cycles. See how far down the road that gets you.

"Life of the car" defined as, what - 100k miles? 150k miles. No one
trusts auto manufcturers when they make promises like that - except when
they want to to support a politically-based claim.

IF they want to warranty it like that, then they should. If they really
mean it, then why don't they warranty it like that? Or do they know the
real statisitics that say they'd lose money like crazy if they did. If
they really believed that, they at least should give lifetime battery
warranty until their statement can be proven after a number of years and
the public's confidence can, from real-wold proof, substitute for a car
maker's say-so. I *never* make a decision based on "the check's in the
mail" type commitments from automakers. Been burned too many times to
do that.

Party on, Garth!

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Bingo Bingo Bingo

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

And of course that is proven in real world highways in real world cars
over real world ownership time-frame. I think not.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

The Honda system is just not as good as Toyotas.

Ed

 

This probably does not count as "proof," but here is some information on
Prius battery life.

Here is a story about a Prius in taxi service with over 200,000 miles:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/

According to this page on Toyota's web site, Toyota has not sold a single
battery pack replacement due to wear and tear since the Prius went on sale
in 2000: http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html

Here is Road & Track's take on whether it is cost-effective to replace the
battery pack in a worst-case scenario where it has to be replaced after 8
years when the warranty expires:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=1183

 

Hmm, sounds like an iPod.

Does anyone know how Toyota defines "life of the car"?

 

Facts??????

Facts have NO place on this newsgroup! <G>

 

Andrew Grant's Vancouver taxi was the first taxi at over 322,000km
(200,000+ miles), and it was pulled from service because Toyota wanted
to study it. His record has since been surpassed by one in Victoria
at 410,000km (250,000+ miles).
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Toyota_Prius.htm#hybridtaxi

There are many members of the toyota-prius yahoogroup that are over
200,000 miles now, as well.

The Prius' battery pack is never allowed to fully charge or discharge,
so no cycling (unlike the batteries in most consumer goods). When
more electricity is needed, the gasoline engine comes on to either
assist the electric motor (or take over for it) or to generate the
necessary electricity.

The displayed charge on the battery (seen on the Prius' Energy Monitor
screen) rarely ever reaches "full" or "empty" but prefers to stay at a
happy medium. But the display only shows you the useable area of
charge on the hybrid battery, displayed "empty" is about 40% and
displayed "full" is about 80%. Actual charge levels can be seen at:
http://www.privatenrg.com/#Full_SOC

Again, quoting from Toyota:
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2006/fall/battery.html
<quote>
Q: Do they ever run out of power?
GS: No. A computer makes sure the batteries never discharge
completely. They never fill completely, either.
.....
Q: Do the high-voltage batteries ever need to be checked or serviced
by the owner or by a dealer?
GS: No, there is no scheduled maintenance for the batteries.

Q: How long do the high-voltage batteries last?
GS: We designed them to last for the life of the vehicle. We're aware
of owners who have racked up a quarter-million miles without replacing
the batteries.

Q: What would it cost to replace a complete battery pack?
GS: Less than $3000, plus labor.

Q: How long is the warranty?
GS: The high-voltage batteries are warranted for eight years or
100,000 miles, and under California regulations the battery warranty
extends to 10 years or 150,000 miles.
</quote>

and from June 2004:
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2004062345528
<quote>
How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement
cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been
designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the
battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never
fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty
easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles
with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.
We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-
generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more
specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between
the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we
expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may
be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale
in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
</quote>


although I'll note that the average miles traveled per passenger car
in the US in 2005 was 12,375miles (http://www.bts.gov/publications/
national_transportation_statistics/html/
table_automobile_profile.html ) , and the median age of automobiles in
operation in the US in 2005 was 9 years (http://www.bts.gov/
publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/
table_01_25.html ).

(again, remember that the warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles on the
hybrid vehicle system (including the hybrid battery pack), and in CA
emission states the hybrid battery on the 2004-current Prius is
further covered out to 10 years/150,000 miles.)

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/end_of_life_test_1.pdf (fuel economy and
battery capacity testing once 160,000 miles are reached on a Classic
NHW11 Prius, GenI HCH, Insight)
http://avt.inl.gov/hev.shtml (HEV testing in general)

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regs/title13/2112.pdf (California Code of
Regulations, title 13, requiring vehicles to have a useful life of
(depending on passenger vehicle) 5 years/50,000 miles (whichever
occurs first), or 7 years/75,000 miles, 10 years/120,000 miles, or 10
years/150,000 miles. See Division 3, chapter 2, Article 2.1, section
10 and 17. (BTW: 2004-current Prius qualifies under the 10 year/
150,000 mile criteria.))

 

Those if favor of "tax" assistance do not think of the fact they are the
ones paying the tax money that is used to "assist," and that is going to a
foreign corporation that pays NO US federal corporate income taxes

mike

 

Dream on.
Currently rechargeable batteries start going down hill at about 3 years.
The fact that they are much weaker between 5 and the 8 yr guarantee
point would not be that noticeable as the Prius battery is very large.
A Prius might then be running as a mild hybrid, not going so far on
battery only.

What Toyota is really saying (quietly to themselves) is that the
batteries will last for the original buyers term with the car.
Very few new car buyers keep a car 8 years.

 

Which would cause the gas mileage to drop.

My in-laws are still driving a first generation Prius, a 2002, with over
100k. The MPG is the same as it ever was.

 

Interesting articles.

I found a few sentences from the middle link interesting:

(1) "Why doesn't Prius offer a plug-in option so it can run in
electric-only mode? Great efforts went into making hybrid cars so they
DON'T have to be plugged in. If a car is converted, it will have a
negative effect on the life of the batteries and the reality is that
it's likely the grid electricity being used is derived from coal, so
there's not much, if any, savings to the environment..."

Begs the question: Why is a one-off gasoline powered (essentially,
distributed) system better for the environment than power derived from
an extremely optimized (for efficiency and emissions) large
(centralized) power plant?

(2) "...Additionally, the electric-only mode would be good for less than
a mile at low speed, so the practicality of it is very limited."

Umm - what does that tell you about the efficiency of the car? That it
is mostly due to an extremely efficient IC engine. I submit that the
regenerative braking is a small part of the efficiency to the degree
that the extra weight of the batteries and added complexity of the
electrical system is beyond the point of diminishing returns. IOW - it
would be interesting to not only disable, but to uninstall the batteries
and their controls (i.e., convert in the opposite direction) to see what
the operational characteristics and fuel economy are with the lower
weight - even without regen. braking. The results might be extremely
telling.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

According to the Toyota article, the car would go less than a mile on
battery alone at low speed. What does that tell you about where the car
gets most of its fuel efficiency from? (hint: a very efficient IC
engine) As I said in another post, it would be interesting for someone
to rip out the batteries and control electronics and see what the
economy would be with just the IC engine. It might be found that the
savings due to lower weight might just about offset the gains from
regenerative braking.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')