The Drive-a-Toyota Act

Oh, another thing---my Corolla is a 5 speed, so the mileage figures
should be 32-41, making the mileages you calculated a tad too low for my
actual vehicle.


I will confess to being surprised by the interior volume figures you
posted. I would never have dreamed the Prius has more interior room than
a Corolla. It certainly doesn't look that way on the outside.

I'm not sure my earlier response articulated my overall point well
enough, so I'll try again. To me, comparing the Prius and the Corolla is
valid because the Corolla is the Toyota product I would buy by default.
To me as a consumer, it's the Corolla that the Prius would be competing
against.

Unlike the average consumer, I actually prefer to buy the stripped down
models with manual transmissions, crank windows and manual locks. My new
Corolla is a bit of a departure in that it has power windows and
locks--I got them essentially thrown into the deal since this particular
car was on the lot and they would rather have absorbed the difference
than gone to retrieve the dealer trade I was actually negotiating for.
My point in sharing this background information is that there doesn't
seem to be such a creature as a stripped down Prius to satisfy my
particular purchasing preferences.

So to me as a consumer, Toyota is stacking the deck against the Prius by
not knocking a few thousand off the sticker by selling a base model
without the myriad options. I realize that the loaded models are what
most consumers want, but my interest in cars is getting reliable
transportation as inexpensively as possible.

Here's how I calculate the difference in mileage over 150K miles at
$3/gallon.

Prius: 150000/55 X 3= $8181

Corolla 150000/37 X 3= 12162

That's a difference in fuel cost of $3981. I paid $14,400 on the road
for my Corolla. To save money over 150K miles, I would have to be able
to buy a Prius for $18,291 on the road. Know anybody selling them that
cheap?

 

I already basically said this in another post: it looks small on the
outside, but is designed in a way which renders it definitely roomy on the
inside. I drive a Corolla & the interior of the Prius is larger than that
of the Corolla.

Cathy

 

I tend to buy used cars and keep them until they are pretty much worn
out, so I don't do either of those things. But in your two scenarios,
look what you have at the end of the 3 or 4 years: In one, a brand new
car, in the other a 3 or 4 year old minimum capability car with new
batteries.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

And your hit on resale will be very big because potential buyers (the
conscious ones anyway) will factor in the essential certainty that they
will need to replace the batteries shortly down the road.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

You can subtract the $787.50 from the savings because *somenone* (the
taxapyer) pays for that. Only if yuou ar a liberal do you ignore such
costs.

Also I question your depreciatrion point, especially if the battery pak
has not been replaced before you put it on the used market. The used car
market will be sure to (and should) factor that in.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Just like potential buyers will factor in the essential certainty that
they will have a very expensive transmission repair on any other car.

But nobody talks about that when discussing used cars. It's simply a
given.

The Prius doesn't have a traditional automatic transmission; it uses a
VERY simple and straightforward mechanism that's pretty much
bulletproof. So the Prius's Achilles Heel is its battery pack instead.
So what? ALL modern cars have incredibly complex systems that make them
dicey as used cars.

 

That's BS. There is a *small* chance that there will be a major tranny
problem on a given used car - yes, it is a risk, just as there is a risk
that you'll walk outside and get run over by a truck, but nowhere near a
certainty. Yet the batteries have a very understood *finite* life.
You're really reaching with that argument.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

That's BS.[/QUOTE]

Nope. A modern automatic transmission is a VERY complex piece of
machinery that even Honda can't get right.

The average owner, or lessee, has no idea how to take care of it and/or
no incentive to do so. Somewhere at the 100K-125K range, it will likely
need serious repair. That's the real world.

The used car buyer factors that in when evaluating a car for price.

So I repeat: standard car or Toyota HSD, both have $3000 weak spots
that will show after much use. The advantage is that I can replace the
battery pack far easier and more quickly than I can the automatic
transmission on the Camry.

What's BS is that you're ignoring the fact that modern auto
transmissions are much, much more frail pieces of gear today than ever.
No doubt some of that is beancounting, the same type of beancounting
that got Honda in trouble for SIX STRAIGHT YEARS on their transmissions
that were hooked to V6 engines. They just could NOT get it right.
First the four speed transmissions were falling like crazy, with Honda
shops replacing three a week, then the nemew 5 speed trannies were
designed with lubrication problems that required a recall for existing
units and a redesign for ongoing new units. The existing units that got
the lubrication kit may or may not fail as a result of that crap.

Honda threw away a BUNCH of their reputation in those two fiascos.

 

If it is so well understood, why don't you give us some references about
the life of a battery pack?

Transmissions, engines, people - all have finite life times, too.

Jeff

 

It certainly does look that way for the current model. The first model
could be visually compared to a Corolla, but not the current one.

Then you are ahead already. You aren't driving a comparable vehicle.
You could save even more money by buying used, maybe a rental or fleet
return.

On the other hand, the hybrids tend to be factory loaded with what are
options on the other vehicles, making "as equipped" comparisons slant in
favor of the hybrid. Honda does that on the Civic. For my 2003, the only
option was 5 speed or CVT, and that disappeared the following year. There
was no sunroof option. Anything else was "standard". Taking less profit
on those things that are high markup options allows a finer margin on the
expensive hybrid parts. Ford seems to have a range of options for the
Escape Hybrid. But I don't think anyone buys the stripped models. A
couple of Ford dealers in this area had stripped hybrids available when
there was a waiting list for the nominally and fully equipped models.

 

Only if there were no hybrids. I would like to thank you for paying your
portion of my rebate, but the source of it doesn't affect the fit in my
pocket. I think of it along the same lines as the development cost for
Velcro, also funded by the taxpayer.

The used car market doesn't seem to be down on the hybrids. The battery
packs are not a factor yet, and they might never be. Given the
conservative state of charge that is maintained, they might never go bad.
In 11 states they have a 10 year warranty. Eventually, there should be an
aftermarket supply. It's only D-cell batteries. In the case of the Honda,
they aren't even high capacity, a total of $863 to replace them all.

 

Nope. A modern automatic transmission is a VERY complex piece of
machinery that even Honda can't get right.

The average owner, or lessee, has no idea how to take care of it and/or
no incentive to do so. Somewhere at the 100K-125K range, it will likely
need serious repair. That's the real world.[/QUOTE]

In my over 35 years of driving and car ownership, I have never had a
single automatic transmission repair (other than 2 $20 speed sensors on
late model Chryslers) - and that's at least 7 cars with automatic
transmissions, and I don't think I've ever gotten rid of one with less
than 170k miles on it.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

You ever deal with computer UPS battery packs in a large company?
Battery life is *much* more finite than automatic transmissions - very
narrow bell curve.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I don't know whether to take issue with that particular statement
("...the source of it doesn't affect the fit in my pocket...") or not,
as I don't understand its meaning. If you can explain its meaning I
will either agree or disagree. *My* point was that the price to you
would have been higher had I not paid part of its direct cost, so please
factor in the amount that everyone else involuntarily contributed to
your car for any real apples and apples comparison.

I'm not sure what you could say that could make that not true, though
maybe there is something I have not considered buried in your statement
that I don't understand the meaning of.

Irrelavent to this discussion. We're talking about total cost of
ownership of two different vehicls. Let's compare like for like to keep
the compraison honest.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

The technology for most UPS's is lead acid battery.

The technology for hybrid cars is nickel hydride.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Jeff

 

You must buy some junk cars. I consistently drive my cars upwards of
250,000 miles and have never had to put a tranny in one.

That is pure bull. Perhaps it is in the line of cars you buy, but that is
far from a universal statement. Most GM trannys will easily go well over
200,000 with only the most modest of care.

Buy a GM if you want a solid tranny.

 

Life of NiMH batteries is limited to 800 to 1000 charge/discharge cycles
- so end-of-life is predictable to a great extent.

If deep discharged, power capacity and useable life are greatly reduced
after 200-300 charge/discharge cycles.

So - yeah - used market value should be affected quite a bit by answer
to question "Were batteries replaced yet?".

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

This has nothing directly to do with this discussion, but Al Gore's son
was arrested today for illegal possession of about 5 different drugs.
But the interesting thing is that, prior to the finding of drugs, he was
initially stopped for doing over 100 mph in a Prius. There has to be a
Far Side™ cartoon in that story somewhere.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Oh - and perhaps Gore's son has enough carbon credits to get out of the
legal mess, being that he was driving a Prius, or maybe he can buy some
credits from his father.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Except that hybrid cars don't deep cycle the batteries. And the
batteries, according to the testing by Toyota, should be good for the
life of the car.

<http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm>

I suspect that Toyota knows far more about how long the batteries will
last than either you or me.

Unless you can offer some authoritative information, I am not going to
waste my time answering to an know-it-all who is, once again, wrong.

Jeff