Replacement of fluid in Torque converter

My wife was in the hospital, and I guess that I was preoccupied. I had
gotten so used to using the ATF +3 in my 95 Caravan that I accidentally used
it for a fluid and filter change in her 99 Concorde instead of the synthetic
ATF +4. I feel that I need to get as much of this ATF +3 out of her car as
possible.

Could I put a piece of tightly fitted tubing from the filter hole into a
bucket of 6 quarts of fresh atf+4, and run the vehicle until the fresh fluid
has all been sucked into the transmission, and the old fluid has been pumped
out of the tube of the cooler? Is there any flaw in that logic? Not
flushing with a machine, per se, just switching whatever is left in the
torque converter using the transmission pump...


Also, I noticed that the last time that the transmission fluid was changed,
they didn't put an o-ring on the filter tube going into the hole. I checked
inside of the hole and around the tube, but there was nothing. Isn't there
supposed to be one there? My Caravan's did.

Thanks

 

yes, the O-ring makes the seal on the trans filter and should likely have
been there.

On the ATF+3 versus ATF+4, I would not worry about it. If it were me, I'd
leave it in there till it was changed down the road in about another 25-30K
miles. FYI, ATF+3 was the non-synthetic predecessor and was probably used
in that same transmission when it came from the factory in 1998 or 1999.

Bob

 

Thanks, Bob,

You see, that's what I was thinking once I realized that I had screwed up,
and I started thinking about it.

You're right, the tranny does have a notation of 1998 on it. I noticed it
on the innards covered by the pan while I was changing the fluid.

I wish that I had at least put the Maxlife in it, since it's synthetic, and
Valvoline is stating that it's a replacement for ATF +3 and ATF +4.

If the dealership can't even put the o-ring on when they're putting a new
filter on, why should I be so worried about the fluid at this point?

I won't let them touch my car again.

 

I've read a lot of the others feedback and feel they are being overly
critical on you. Yes, the ATF+4 is the preferred fluid and should be used,
but given the ATF+3 is already in there, I say leave it be. If you want to,
just change it sooner.

I know that ATF+3 and ATF+4 are inter mixable and compatible with each other
as I have used the newer ATF+4 in my vehicles that all came originally with
ATF+3. You usually get about half the fluid capacity when you change the
fluid using the drop the pan method. You don't say what they used when they
changed it previously or what it came with when new. But, at the worst, you
now have about 2/3 ATF+3 in the unit.

Good luck.

Bob

 

Your opinion does not match Chrysler's specification.

ATF+4 is backward compatible. ATF+3 is not forward compatible.

 

'Course not. Not your transmission, so why should you care? Please try to
have *some* reasonable basis for your recommendations beyond WAguesses.

The vehicle is a 2000 Concorde. Factory fill was ATF+4.

 

Doing so will be a nuisance, but very good and inexpensive insurance
against expensive transmission damage due to incorrect fluid.

It'll be messy, but should do the job as long as you work carefully and
pay attention to what you're doing.

Yes.

Also be sure to get the reusable pan gasket.

 

Also, I noticed that the last time that the transmission fluid was

I went back through my drain pans, and found the o-ring... good news!

I'm using the cork right now, and it's holding well. I bought an
aftermarket filter just to get the gasket. The last one that I bought for
my Caravan had a hard, fiber gasket that really worked well. I'm not as
thrilled with the cork one, however. This cork one works for now, but I am
aware that it might start leaking long term.

I've had problems with the RTV grey that you're supposed to use, because the
transmission will continue to leak fluid over the edge, no matter how long
it sits. I don't like the fluid being in that place where the RTV is
touching the pan and face of the tranny.

I'm pretty experimental with my vehicles, and I've never come out with any
problems. I just try to use common sense when dealing with issues such as
dealer vs. generic, etc.

With the touchy nature of Chrysler transmissions, I want to make sure that I
do this right, but I don't want to go overboard, either. I'm in a holding
pattern right now.

 

ATF+4 (9602) can be used in vehicles originally designed to use ATF+3. The
converse is not true.

 

NUMBER: 21-004-04

GROUP: Transmission



SUBJECT:

Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage ATF+4 (Type 9602)

MODELS:

1989 - 1995 (AA) Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron Sedan

1989 - 2003 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon

1989 - 1993 (AC) Dynasty/New Yorker/New Yorker Salon

1989 - 1993 (AD) Ram Truck

1989 - 1994 (AG) Daytona

1989 (AH) Lancer/Lebaron GTS

1989 - 1995 (AJ) Lebaron Coupe/Lebaron Convertible

1989 - 1990 (AK) Aries/Reliant

1989 - 1990 (AL) Horizon/Omni

1989 (AM) Diplomat/Gran Fury/New Yorker fifth Avenue

1989 - 2004 (AN) Dakota

1989 - 1994 (AP) Shadow/Sundance

1990 - 1991 (AQ) Maserati

1990 - 1993 (AY) Imperial/New Yorker Fifth Avenue

1994 - 2003 (BR/BE) Ram Truck

2004 - 2005 (CS) Pacifica

1998 - 2003 (DN) Durango

2002 - 2004 (DR) Ram Truck

1995 - 2000 (FJ) Sebring/Avenger/Talon

2000 (GS) Chrysler Voyager (International Market)

2004 (HB) Durango

1995 - 2000 (JA) Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze

2001- 2004 (JR) Sebring Sedan & Convertible/Stratus Sedan

1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible

2002 - 2004 (KJ) Liberty

1993 - 2004 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/Vision/LHS/New

Yorker /300M

2005 (LX) Chrysler 300/Magnum

2000 (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager

1995 - 2004 (PL) Neon

2002 - 2003 (PG) PT Cruiser (International Markets)

2001 - 2005 (PT) PT Cruiser

1997 - 2002 (PR) Prowler

2001 - 2005 (RG) Chrysler Voyager (International Markets)

2001 - 2005 (RS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager

1997 - 2004 (TJ) Wrangler

2001 - 2004 (WG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)

1999 - 2004 (WJ) Grand Cherokee

1989 - 1995 (YJ) Wrangler

1996 - 1998 (ZG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)

1994 - 1998 (ZJ) Grand Cherokee/Grand Wagoneer

NOTE: This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured by Chrysler
except for

1999 and earlier minivans with the 41TE/AE transmission, This Service
Bulletin DOES

NOT apply to all AW-4 transmissions, Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire
transmissions

and WG bodies equipped with a W5J400 or NAG1 transmission (sales code DGJ).

DISCUSSION:

A new transmission fluid (ATF+4® - Type 9602) has been developed and is
being

used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic
transmissions.It is

recommended that all vehicles with Chrysler automatic transmissions EXCEPT

FOR THOSE LISTED ABOVE be serviced with ATF+4®..

NOTE: ATF+4® must always be used in vehicles that were originally filled
with ATF+4®.

NOTE: Service intervals do not change. The service interval currently in

effect for a given vehicle should continue to be followed.

NOTE: ATF+4® is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4 can be used

to top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2

or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4® fluid.

BENEFITS

..Better anti-wear properties

..Improved rust/corrosion prevention

..Controls oxidation

-3- 21-004-04

..Eliminates deposits

..Controls friction

..Retains anti-foaming properties

..Superior properties for low temperature operation

FLUID COLOR

Mopar ATF+4® is a World Class Fluid having exceptional durability. However,
the red dye

used in ATF+4® is not permanent; as the fluid ages it may become darker or
appear brown in

color. ATF+4® also has a unique odor that may change with age. With ATF+4®
fluid, color

and odor are no longer indicators of fluid condition and do not support a
fluid change.

PARTS REQUIRED:

Qty. Part No. Description

AR 05013457AA Fluid, Transmission, ATF+4® (Type 9602),Quart

 

You're not alone. That's why Mopar released the reusable metal gasket.

 

SUBJECT: New Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage (ATF +4 Type 9602)

**NOTE: THIS INFORMATION APPLIES TO MODELS AS FOLLOWS:**

MODELS BUILD DATE
**GS** **AFTER NOVEMBER 8, 1999 (MDH1108XX)**
JA AFTER SEPTEMBER 7, 1998 (MDH0907XX)
**JX** **AFTER MAY 21, 1999 (MDH0521XX)**
LH AFTER JULY 20, 1998 (MDH0720XX)
**NS**
**AFTER OCTOBER 10, 1999 (MDH1010XX)
WINDSOR ASSY PLANT**
**AFTER OCTOBER 18, 1999 (MDH1018XX)
ST LOUIS ASSY PLANT**
11TH POSITION OF VIN - R = WINDSOR/B = ST LOUIS
**PL** **AFTER APRIL 24, 1999 (MDH0424XX)**
PR AFTER JULY 20, 1998 (MDH0720XX)


DISCUSSION:
A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is
being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build rear
wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4 throughout the
2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin will be updated as
additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

**Always refer to this, or vehicle specific TSB's for the correct
transmission fluid usage whenever performing service that requires fluid for
1999 or later models.**

NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED
WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS OF
THIS NEW FLUID.

AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD
CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176. **VEHICLE SPECIFIC TSB'S
WILL BE ISSUED TO ANNOUNCE THE USE OF ATF +4 FOR EARLIER YEARS.**

The p/n for quarts of ATF +4 is 05013457AA. Following are the added benefits
of ATF +4:

RECOMMENDED SERVICE INTERVALS

a.. Normal Maintenance (Schedule A) - None (Fill For Life)
b.. Severe Maintenance (Schedule B) - Fluid/Filter 77,000 km (48,000
miles)
ADDITIONAL BENEFITS

a.. Better anti-wear properties
b.. Improved rust/corrosion prevention
c.. Controls oxidation
d.. Eliminates deposits
e.. Controls friction
f.. Retains anti-foaming properties
g.. Superior properties for low temperature operation
FLUID COLOR

a.. ATF +4 is red in color as previously used transmission fluid.
NOTE: THE RED DYE USED IN ATF +4 FLUID IS NOT A PERMANENT QUALITY. AS
FLUID AGES, IT CAN BECOME DARKER OR MAY EVEN APPEAR LIGHT BROWN.
DISCOLORATION ALONE DOES NOT INDICATE THE NEED FOR A FLUID CHANGE. IF THE
COLOR CHANGE IS ACCOMPANIED BY A BURNT SMELL AND/OR A DETERIORATION IN SHIFT
QUALITY, NEW FLUID MAY BE REQUIRED.

POLICY: Information Only

 

Dan,

Go back and re-read the original post in the thread. The vehicle in
question is clearly a 1999 Concorde, not a model year 2000 as you somehow
believe. I may well still be wrong, but I thought the 1999 model year used
ATF+3 (7176) fill directly from the factory.

While I agree the ATF+4 is superior for the reasons cited in the TSB posted
by maxpower (and certainly would have been a better choice), I find it hard
to believe that the exact same fluid that it came with directly from the
Chrysler factory back in 1998 or early 1999 would now cause major problems.

BTW, I am done contributing to this thread ... the OP will do what he thinks
best and I am sure he appreciates all the information he received to make
that decision. As you pointed out, it's not my vehicle, so I am not going
to lose any sleep over whatever he decides.

Bob

 

Hi Bob,

I'm really looking for something more than "what Chrysler states" or
""what's in the manual", so your posts are exactly the kind of thinking that
I'm using.

I appreciate your input. What you say makes perfect sense. Sure, the
manual says "ATF +4 only" but I just have a hard time believing that they
changed the transmission so much that you absolutely must use only the ATF
+4, especially when they're telling you that you can add +4 to +3 in older
applications.

What I'm hearing is that you can have a roughly 50/50 mix in an older
Caravan, but the same mix can't be put in that 99 Concorde.

I hear what everyone is saying, I'm seeing the manuals and TSBs, but I'm
also open to common sense thinking on this issue. And 9 bucks for a quart
of fluid is a large amount of money, especially now that I need to do a full
torque converter fluid switchout to accomplish the level of purity that this
transmission seems to require. We're looking at over $140 bucks for this
whole procedure. Add Chrysler filter, reusable gasket, etc. Wow, we're
getting up to ebay value on my car... just kidding. Actually, we're
getting closer to what the insurance co. would give us for this car totalled
out!!! Seriously. Olay, maybe exaggerated, but not by too much.

Hell, I might come out with a better protected transmission because of this
if I follow through on the full torque converter fluid switch using the +4
now, than I would have doing just the recommended pan/filter switch, without
doing the torque converter.

What I'd REALLY like to hear is from some salesman who drives hundreds of
miles a day, and has the exact same car that I do, and has been using the
ATF +3 for several years, and hasn't had a problem with it at all. Or from
a transmission specialist who knows for sure if there is a difference
between the specs of the 99 transmission and the previous ones, or if it's
just about specifying one better fluid over the other, for the sake of the
better fluids.

What if a transmission repair guy comes on and tells us that the parts,
computer settings and tolerances on a 98 transmission and a 99 transmission
are exactly the same? THAT's where common sense comes into play. We just
need more information.

My mechanic and I have quite a bit of experience with these transmissions,
and we both decided that most of the problems with Chrysler transmissions
are from using Dexron or Dexron with additives. I'm pretty sure that when I
ask him about this, he'll tell me not to worry about the +3 in the tranny.

Is there anyone on the board who has had a 99 or newer Chrysler transmission
that they used +3 fluid with, and had problems or not?

This is no disrespect to the people who are, in my opinion, smart enough to
go by the book.

 

Next time you have the pan off, use the DC gasket P/N 05011114AA. It's
metal sandwich construction. Superior to the RTV or cork aftermarket
gaskets. Reuseable up to 3 times, per DC's TSB.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Yes that is good logic.

See this thread on the 300M Enthusiasts forum to see how it's done (300M
and Concorde power trains and chassis are identical - in fact, the
photos in my post in that thread show where I spliced the cooler return
line on my Concorde for changing out the tranny fluid):
http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6295&highlight=return+fluid

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

If you're paying more than $5.20/qt. or $20 by the gallon for ATF+4,
you're being overcharged. (That ain't cheap either, but a lot better
than $9/qt.!)

BTW - my Concorde is a '99 also, but I can't say that I have ever used
ATF+3 in it - unless that's what was in it when I bought it with 58k on
the ticker.

Also - have your dealer check the firmware version in the TCM to make
sure it's the latest (per TSB No. 18-17-00). There was a firmware
update released in Sept. '00 for the 99MY that makes the tranny shift
much smoother - or let's just say that when I replaced whatever fluid it
had in it with fresh ATF+4 and had the firmware update done at the same
time, the tranny worked much smoother, and has done nothing but get
better since then - now has 140k miles on it and running great (with the
2.7L engine no less).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Hi Bill,

Which line is the return line? The one coming from the top of the radiator,
or the lower one? I still can't tell from the pics, and the Haynes service
manual doesn't even specify.

I would normally assume that the "fluid in" hose would be going in high and
the "return fluid" line would be low, but when you mentioned that the fluid
was just being dumped back into the transmission, I wasn't sure that the
lower one would offer enough gravity for this.

Thanks again,

Jimmy

 

A 1999 Concorde would have been designed for and filled with ATF+4 at the
factory.

 

You didn't read far enough into the thread. 8^)

Someone later in the thread asked the same question (word for word).
Answer: The higher line is the return line (see aft of the alternator in
the photo - the spliced return line is above the other line (output line
from tranny to radiator).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')