Problem With Power Outlet

No Max - it is, 99.9% sure, NOT a battery problem. It IS a wiring

Without knowing battery voltage, you have no idea.

Both of which need to be tested using a KNOWN good battery. Wow, I've said
this several times now, and all you "engineers" refuse to believe that
KNOWING your baseline voltage is ESSENTIAL to finding a DROP in the wiring.

Sure they are. But first test in diagnostics is to check to see that the
SOURCE of power is stable and performing to spec. I didn't say the problem
was the battery, I DID say that checking the battery and confirming it as
operating properly is the FIRST STEP. I'll repeat for you that are hard of
reading:

1) Check battery nominal voltage.
2) Check power port voltage
3) Act accordingly.

WTF don't you understand about that?

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

And if that's not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands,

WOW, exactly what I suggested 50 posts back.....

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Actually, Max, would you not check power AT THE OUTLET first, to see

Since you are the one suggesting that the wiring in the vehicle is the
"device" with the problem, the "outlet" needs to be compared with the
source, the incoming line or the battery, depending on hte example being
used.

Right, but you've suggested that the wiring is the problem, so knowing the
battery voltage becomes essential to the diagnostics.

Either way will work, but in a vehicle, you MUST know the voltage at which
the battery is operating in order to know if you have a drop at the device.


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Remember, this is MAX speaking. Doesn't have to make sense or be based

But it does have to be based in reailty, unlike your bullshit replies.

If you don't know battery voltage in a vehicle, its impossible to know if
the voltage at the device is too low due to load, resistance, or if the
battery is bad. ALWAYS eliminate the power source as a problem before
ASSUMING something else is messing with supply.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

That is a cluelss service manager. I've had batteries last less than 3

Really? So would you test the battery first, or simply assume it was ok and
not know if your diagnostics were properly indicating the problem?

Seems like a lot of you "experts" would skip the battery test and move
directly to measuring voltage at the power port to compare it to.......
oh... thats right, you didn't check the battery....so you won't know if the
wiring is the problem.... Or if the draw by the device is the problem.....
or if some protective circuitry is working....

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

They are MORE accurate than a load test.

Terrific! Then I repeat, 12.6 volts is too low. As we know, 2.2 volts per
cell comes up at 13.2v, therefore, the battery is bad.

Sorta what I suggested before, and then suggested he have it retested or
simply replace it if a retest was not an option.

But hey, my facts are crap.... although they seem remarkably the same as
yours....

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Yep, and do you know how they work? They don't hold voltage exactly.

YA sure about that? The new ones are pretty good.....

Um.... do I need to explain load here again? Ever drive a car with an
ammeter?


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Hardly. If the voltage drops much under load, it won't provide enough

Yup. I also understand starter motors, and I know they will turn at as low
as 8 volts while still being a 12v system. Do you do much in automotive
diagnostics, or do you think a degree makes you an expert at repairs?
Further, did that degree you got make you able to read english coherently,
or did you miss my point because you didn't read at all instead of
stupidity?

LOL, Load tester: $60, but not applied to bill
One minute of test time: $1
Information leading to battery condition knowledge: Priceless.

SO what tests would you be referring to?

Yeah, and you sound like a clueless academic who hasn't spent much time in a
garage except your own, but DOES feel that your "expertise" qualifies you to
argue with guys who've seen this problem so many times its ingrained in our
training.

AGAIN:

1) Test battery and ascertain voltage.
2) Test powerport, and ascertain voltage drop if any.
3) Act accordingly.

Wrong. Without a known supply voltage, its impossible to know if the port
voltage is too low, or if its normal for the voltage supplied by the source.
Unlike your house electrical, batteries tend to change voltage with many
variables. Instead of discussing ten or twenty varibles, you check battery
voltage FIRST. This establishes a baseline. (scientific method anyone???)
Once you have a baseline, THEN you check the possible variable, voltage at
the powerport.

Which proves one thing..... you are NOT qualified to do automotive
diagnostics at home, let alone over the net. Meanwhile, a simple load test
which takes all of a minute with a load bank that cost less than $100 (and
can be borrowed for even less!) will show battery condition.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Again, test the power port with a meter, and you'll know if the voltage

Wow, one "dipshit" finally figured out what I've been saying all along.

1) Test battery for voltage
2) Test port for voltage
3) act accordingly.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

The factory Delco battery in my 85 Jeep Comanche lasted 9 years so I
wouldn't have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good
idea. I guess we just have different definitions of good idea.

He does now as several of us have given him a few clues. You just gave
him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop.


Matt

 

Bill, it is clear he doesn't understand the fundamentals of Ohm's law let

I understand both very well. I also understand diagnotic procedure and
scientific method. I'm also well versed in this sort of problem, as its
quite common in battery based electrical systems.

Further, you both seem to think testing the port voltage will show something
without knowledge of battery voltage. I'd like to know to what you will
compare this port reading in order to determine its value?

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Maybe you don't know the meaning of "or", but to refresh your memory or

Yeah, based on you knowledgable types thinking the battery should have 2.2v
per cell, anything less than 13.2 indicates a bad battery. So yeah, using
your vast knowledge, I was stupid to suggest a second test of the battery.
He should have just replaced it.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

He said the battery voltage has been checked and was 12.8V.

He said he knew the "baseline" (not sure what that means) voltage was
12.8V. That is all you need to know for the diagnistic approach we
suggested, which was check the voltage at the power outlet and see what
you find.


Matt

 

No, I would check the voltage at the power outlet first. Then I would
check the battery and other components as necessary. Since he said he
had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value, which is
well withing spec for a good battery, I didn't see a need to check the
battery a second time.

It isn't like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. If it
isn't within spitting distance of 12V, then something is amiss. Now if
you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown, then I'd
probably check that first, but in a car the bus voltage specification is
known. The voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isn't. I
don't need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the
power outlet is correct.

Matt

 

Except that the normal cell voltage for a lead acid battery is 2-2.1 and
anything above about 2.15V/cell will charge the battery.

Matt

 

Yes, I'm sure. Most regulator specs are in the range of .4-.5V over a
10-95% alternator output range.

Want me to post a spec sheet for you or can you Google one on your own?


Matt

 

OK, I picked up a voltmeter ($12 on sale at Sears for a digital one). I set
it to the 20V DC range and tested the battery and the two outlets, both with
the engine on and engine off. I followed the same testing protocol as I
previously mentioned (outlet alone, inverter alone, charger alone, laptop
off, laptop on); only this time, I got different results (inverter shut
itself off more than last time). I used the auxiliary power outlet in the
inverter when the charger was plugged into it. Here are my results (listed
in the order the tests were performed).

Battery
-----------------
Engine off: 13.0
Engine on: 13.5

Front Power Outlet (Engine Off)
----------------------------------
Outlet alone: 13.0
With inverter alone: 12.9
With charger alone in inverter: 12.8
With laptop plugged in (off and charging): 12.0
With laptop plugged in (on and charging): 11.2

(These were with all doors closed and all interior lights and other
accessories off. However, when first testing, the side door was open. There
were no interior lights on (turned them off with the switch). However, a
small light in the dash telling me the door was open was on. In this
scenario, when I plugged the laptop in with it on and charging, the inverter
turned itself off. When the door was then closed, I got the above reading,
11.2V.)

Front Power Outlet (Engine On)
----------------------------------
Outlet alone: 13.5
With inverter alone: 13.4
With charger alone in inverter: 13.4
With laptop plugged in (off and charging): 12.4
With laptop plugged in (on and charging): 12.0

(In this setup, the doors were closed. However, I tested it with the door
open, as per above when the inverter turned off. In that case, I got 12.2V
for the last one, instead of 12.0. That doesn't really make sense that the
voltage would be higher. So maybe there was some fluctuation.)

Rear Power Outlet (Engine On)
----------------------------------
Outlet alone: 13.5
With inverter alone: 13.4
With charger alone in inverter: 13.3
With laptop plugged in (off and charging): 12.0
With laptop plugged in (on and charging): Inverter turned off

Rear Power Outlet (Engine Off)
----------------------------------
Outlet alone: 13.2
With inverter alone: 13.1
With charger alone in inverter: 13.0
With laptop plugged in (off and charging): Inverter turned off
With laptop plugged in (on and charging): Inverter turned off

(Note that the engine had been on for the two previous tests, which might
explain why the outlet had 13.2V, while the battery with the engine off had
previously tested at 13.0V. This is all the more interesting, though, since
the inverter turned itself off with the laptop off and plugged in.
Previously, the inverter remained on in the rear outlet when the laptop was
off and plugged in. Yet here the outlet is showing a higher voltage of 13.2V
with nothing in it, yet the inverter didn't stay on with the laptop off and
plugged in. Tested that twice.)

Thanks!

Neil

 

Checking voltage at the place where the problem is occuring, namely the
power outlet.

Practicing the same wrong procedure doesn't make it right. It just
makes one very proficient at being wrong.

He gave the battery voltage in one of his very early posts. Why do you
want to keep checking the same thing rather than something new?

Sure it is because you know what the voltage at that power outlet SHOULD
be on a 12V negative ground automobile.

I've done them for well over 30 years quite successfully and have never
needed a load tester. I can quickly isolate most problems without
needing more than a $10 DVM.

Why you feel the need to load test a battery for a load that will
require at most 8A from a battery that will crank and start the engine
is beyond logic.


Matt

 

Except that you have it out of order.

1) Test port for correct voltage. For a 12V negative ground car this is
..... drum roll please ... 12V!

2) If the result of test 1 isn't 12V, then check the battery voltage.


Matt

 

1) Tonight I was driving with the laptop turned off but plugged into the

Actually, the headlights weren't on (it was about an hour before sunset).
And here in Texas, it's been in the 70's or 80's, so no heater! Might have
had the AC on a little though.

Retest? The flickering happens intermittently. Only noticed it a couple of
times in the week I've had the car.

Thanks,

Neil