Problem With Power Outlet

Not so. You changed it into an argument about something that I never

Thats a lie.

The only time he indicates the inverter switched off while the engine is on
is while the laptop was on and operational. In this same test he notes odd
fluctuations, not simply line drop. We're back to testing the battery to
insure its ability is up to par, with an additional test to find out
stabilty of alt. output, which might be directly tied to battery condition.
IOW, while line drop is obviously present, it does not rule out battery
condition. Further, since battery voltage only checked before testing, and
is not tested concurrent to the various scenarios, we don't have any info
on source voltage when the port voltage shows as a problem.

Fascinating that we have loads of proof of a line drop, but NONE of a good
source while the line drop is occurring.


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Might be because the "pig" is basically right and the engineers are grasping
at straws.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Whatever. (But nowhere did I deny that the inverter cut off with engine
off, so I don't know why you keep insisting that I did, barring some
mental disorder on your part. If you ignore inverter cut off with
engine on, which cut off did occur, the possibilities are bad battery or
line drops or bad ground - *BUT* - and that's a *big* butt - if you add
the factoid that it *also* cut off with engine on (i.e., alternator
forcing higher voltage at the battery, which was verified), *then* the
bad battery scenario drops out and you are left with line drop or bad
ground. Bow down to my superior field experience and troubleshooting
skills.)

With all the observations made, the only way that would be a factor is
in the case of a shorted cell, which I mentioned several times
previously but which there have been absolutely no indications of. You
do not get the voltage measurements on the battery with engine off that
Neil got with a shorted cell, and in such a case, the alternator will
raise the voltage above battery rest voltage with engine running
(essentially taking the battery out of the equation). You have a
*remote* chance of being right *if* there is an *intermittent* shorted
cell condition.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

And everyone knows what pigs do to straw (p-$$ in it)

 

It is something else. DC likes to save money where it can and they

I tend to think it's the latter. The front outlet is also problematic.

Yes, indeed! I appreciate everyone's help. I was able to do it with my
14-year old son, so we both learned a little and had fun (most of the time
) at the same time.

If there are problems with both the front and the rear outlets, wouldn't it
make sense that the problem is elsewhere besides the wiring to each outlet?

Neil

 

Yes, that would be nice. But the front and rear outlets both exhibit
problems. So that would seem to indicate that the problem is elsewhere in
the system, no?

 

I may have misread Max's post. But I thought he was saying that it's 15V
without the heater, and 12.5V with the heater.

 

As you've been discussing with Clare, I tested the voltage at the battery
with the load (laptop on and charging) placed on it, and the voltage at the
battery was fine, whereas the voltage at the ports dropped 1-2V. That would
seem to indicate that the battery's fine and that the problems with the
wiring, no?

Neil

 

Neil, the grid heater is a large draw that most people don't have. You are
correct, its 15v when the heater is off, and 12.5 or so with it in
operation. With old batteries, I was dropping to 11.5v and only peaking at
14.5 or so. Theory says nothing is wrong with either condition, but the new
batteries obviously made a huge difference in nominal power.

Since this nominal figure is the one that shuts down the inverter in your
case, its logical to look at ALL possible causes of this low reading. I am
certain you have line drop. It would be impossible not to have some line
drop, and I'm sure the wiring isn't the best available, although I hesitate
to say its the worst as some here would have you believe.

I still think its wise to load test the battery, and once it passes, check
the wiring. The logical way to proceed is to eliminate problem areas, rather
than assume a problem is caused by one thing, and base all repairs on an
assumption. Essentially what others are asking you to do is replace the
wiring due to line drop. But until you check the power source at the same
time as the port, and determine that ONLY the line voltage is dropping below
spec, you'll simply be replacing parts in an effort to cure the problem.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

As you've been discussing with Clare, I tested the voltage at the battery

Sure would. You've essentially done a load test. I'm still skeptical
regarding the age of the battery, but if its working under your load, by all
means, its on to the wiring. Your next problem is one that might be a bit
confusing. Is the line drop a problem of wiring by design or by wear and
age? To check it all, you'll need to find the fuse and the ground points,
and check continuity/resistance across the circuit. If you find resistance
to be nil, its probably true that the wires are too small for the load. If
you find a large resistance, especially to ground, you've got a problem
caused by age and wear. Either way, the fix is likely to be rewiring the
port, or replacing the port with a heavier unit. Both of these issues are a
bit more work than replacing a battery.


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

And everyone knows what pigs do to straw (p-$$ in it)

Which begs the question, would you prefer to piss in straw rather than grasp
at it, or stick your hand under a pissing pig grasping at straws? Who is
smarter here?

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Who gives a ****? STFU.

 

Neil, are both outlets on the same fuse like on my Pontiac?
If not, there is a simple way to find out if you have a common problem
(affecting both) or whether it is simply a matter of both circuits
having a problem. With the engine running, so HOPEFULLY the inverter
will stay running, and with the inverter in the back plug, with the
computer on, check the battery voltage at idle.
Then check the voltage at the inveter feed-through plug, and then at
the front plug. The front plug SHOULD read battery voltage, and the
rear feed-through plug will read less.

The difference between battery voltage and feed-through plug voltage
is the total voltage drop. If the battery voltage and the front socket
voltage are not the same, the difference is the voltage drop that is
common to both circuits (could be ground resistance, could be power
feed resistance to the fuse panel)

Turn on the heater fan and / 0r headlights and see if the voltage drop
increases. Make sure to recheck the battery voltage so you can
accurately calculate the circuit voltage drop.

Now do the chassis ground voltage drop test again (2 volt scale from
battery post to the good chassis ground).

Do this test with the same load (computer and headlights and/or heater
fan). Subtract this drop from the total drop and you know how much
drop you have un accounted for.
To find out where the drop is occurring, connect a wire from the
battery positive to one wire of the meter, and connect the other wire
to the fuse in the fuse panel. You will need a "jumper" wire to extend
the voltmeter leads from the battery back to the fuse box. Whatever
the voltage reading is from the battery to the fuse is the voltage
drop between the battery and the fuse block.
Then you can go from the fuse to the center of the feed-through plug
on the inverter. Any reading here is the voltage drop across the
(thin) wire from the fuse to the inverter plug. Then connect the meter
from the shell(ground side) of the feedthrough plug to a good body
ground (can be any bright plated screw or bolt into the metal body -
often the tailgate latch is as good and handy as any) ANY reading here
is drop between the plug ground and body ground.

Reply with the results of the test, or if you want to avoid the
"circus" you can respond to me by e-mail. I think you can figure out
my email address from the munged address shown.

 

I've just posted more or less detailed instructions how to do the
voltage drop tests to determine where in the circuit the problem lies.

When Neil gets back with the results, I'll point him to the actual
source of the problem and suggest the most sensible route to follow to
correct it.

 

outlet?


Not at all. They will most likely use the same wiring for both and if the
shorter front wiring is giving a problem, you can bet that the rear one will
as well. You can run yourself in circles with this forever but unless you
see a significant voltage drop AT THE BATTERY when you turn your inverter on
(engine off) then it has to be either in the wiring or the socket itself.

 

Hi, Clare. Thanks for these steps. Some questions.

There is one fuse which toggles the back outlet between going directly to
the battery or needing the key to be in Acc to function. When that fuse is
out, the back outlet doesn't work at all, but the front one does. So I
assume that means they're not on the same fuse. (Not sure if they'd be "on
the same fuse" if I have that one fuse set to Key, as the front one is.)

Is there a particular kind of wire I should be using (thickness, material,
etc.)?

Also, how do I connect the wire to the fuse? Place it in the fuse socket,
and then put the fuse in the socket as well, or some other way?

By the way, my battery and fuse box are right next to each other. So the
voltmeter will easily reach to both. Do I still need to use a wire?

Last, the fuse would be the fuse which toggles the rear output
functionality, not the one for the front outlet, correct?

I guess I would definitely need a wire for that.

When going from the battery to the fuse, I'd be using the red lead on the
battery positive, and the black lead on the fuse, right?

Here, I'd be doing the same -- red lead to center of plug and black to fuse,
correct?

Black lead to the shell of the plug and red lead to the body ground?

I don't mind the circus -- though if you tell me which NG you're reading and
posting in, I'll remove the crossposting (since some have complained about
that).

Thanks again for your help!

Neil

 

Not at all. They will most likely use the same wiring for both and if the

So you are saying he should load test the battery, using the equipment at
hand? Wow, sounds remarkably familiar, yet you denied my opinion had any
merit. Now you seem to share it.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Neil - Stick with Clare - he'll get you thru this.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

OK, they are NOT on the same fuse. We have THAT settled.

It would not be terribly critical, but in this case, with the fuse
box right next to the battery you don't need it anyway.

Just poke the probe of the meter into the end of the fuse - in MOST
ATO fuses, the "post" of the fuse is accessible.

Yes, and as I said, the size of wire is not critical as there is no
load on it.

Correct. With a digital meter it is not critical - hook it up
backwards and it just indicates - voltage.

Normally the other way - positive to what is EXPECTED to be the higher
voltage. Again, with digital, it doesn't matter.

Again, GENERALLY, the other way, but with digital instrumentation it
is not critical.

 

OK, great. After this message, I'll post all messages only to
alt.autos.dodge.

Thanks,

Neil