Problem With Power Outlet

Yes he did, but if one of those components was slowly failing it may have

Yup, thats true. So now ya have to ask yourself... is it cheaper to load
test an automotive battery (next to no $$), or send a complex piece of
electronic hardware to the repair shop, losing not only $$, but having
downtime as well, possibly tying up other things?

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

For crying out lowd Max, how do you think they arrived at the

I've seen a bunch of batteries at many different CCA figures, so who cares?

Last I checked, you wouldn't go for a CCA rating through the port, would
you? So we're back to a test that can be used in a comparitive manner.

By whom? Certainly not you. Nor the bunch that, despite their degrees, keep
leaving out facts from the original post.

From what I've seen, internet advice is worth about what ya pay for it. Yet,
in the mix, I'm the only one telling him to go get hands on testing, instead
of assuming the wires are substandard, or that the battery is bad, or good.
So instead of asking him to believe what I say, I advise that he go have
diagnostic work done, or do it himself. And the experts complain at that bit
of advice. Tough shit.


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

So - designing, building by hand, and troubleshooting in the field is
less than troubleshooting in the field without the design and building,
in your "judgement". That would go along with the rest of your "logic".

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

It is stranded wire with each strand individually insulated (typically
by a thin layer of varnish). It would be used in high frequency, high
current circuits to counter the effects of skin effect. Skin effect is
the concentration of high frequency current at the surface of a single
conductor (i.e., the core of the conductor conducts very little) with
the result that, due to the effective reduction in cross-sectional area,
the real resistance of the conductor for high frequencies is much
greater than it is for low frequencies (the conductor becomes an
effective low pass filter). By individually insulating each small
conductor (of a stranded wire), the skin "depth" is close to the radius
(full depth/cross-section) of each individual conductor, and you gain
back pretty much the complete current capacity of the bundle even at
high frequencies. (There is a formula for skin depth over frequency, so
if a system operates up to a known frequency, the strands are sized
accordingly.)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

LOL! Yeah - each strand has to be individually stripped to terminate
(unless the insulation can be melted off in soldering). Also expensive
to manufacture.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Max,
If the OP followed my instructions (which he did) the voltage of the
battery UNDER THE LOAD BEING EXPERIENCED is verified. He checks the
voltage at the load, and at the source while under load. If the source
voltage is within spec, and the load voltage is not, he has a circuit
problem - and ONLY a circuit problem. Is the battery perfect? We don't
know. Is it the problem, NO.
If on the other hand the load voltage is below spec, and the (source)
battery voltage is ALSO low, we know he has a battery problem. If
there is a significant difference between source and load voltage, he
ALSO has a circuit problem.

If he has a circuit problem (which WAS confirmed by the tests) the
first thing he needs to do is find and fix the circuit problem.
He has tested the body ground - and it has been found to be mediocre -
but not serious. Real easy to fix, so lets get that out of the way
first, then chase down the rest of the problem. It's not very
efficient troubleshooting long distance, particularly with the delays
of Usenet propogation factored in.

 

Hey wait a minute. This is lauhgable. Here are a few questions for you
(they're pretty much rhetorical - oh - that means they are not intended
to be answered, but you might learn something by thinking about them):
- Are the laws of physics different for *positive* ground systems?
(answer - no)
- Are there even any positive ground vehicles made nowadays? (not sure
about that one, but if any, not very many *at* *all*)
- Are the laws of physics different, for the 24 volt negative ground
industrial crane that I troubleshot last year? (answer - no).
- Are the laws of physics different for any other 24 volt, or 48 volt
vehicles? (answer - no)
- What about a piece of electronics that has positive and negative power
supply voltages (like your computer). Is that considered positive
ground or negative ground? (that one should confuse you pretty good for
a while)
- Do you know what a single-point ground is, and does your car have one?
(answers - no and no)

By you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v
system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your
lack of understanding.

If a person understands, designs, and troubleshoots not only 12v neg.
ground systems, but understands, designs, and troubleshoots positive
ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48
volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less
knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg.
ground systems? (again - all rhetorical questions)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

If the OP followed my instructions (which he did) the voltage of the

IOW, perform a battery load test using the equipment at hand, rather than
one that tests only the battery. BUT... its still a load test, which
everyone claimed was either not necessary, or cerainly not a first step. Now
you say its not only part of the process, but you mention it in the first
step.

Congrats, thats exactly what I suggested, only using an actual load tester,
instead of electronic equipment that was prone to shutting down.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

By you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v

Never said the laws of physics were different. I did say that the procedures
used by an experienced tech compared to the theoretical silliness proposed
by the engineers here was a better way to do it and would be more thorough.
The actual problem seems to be one of actually taking into account the facts
given before any troubleshooting started.

Theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding
and fixing these problems. You suggested testing at the port to determine
voltage. Terrific, and from a textbook, thats logical. But when the
complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low
voltage at the port, its illogical to test the port for something you KNOW
its exhibiting. The first step is to test either the source or the
equipment. Well, we KNOW from what the OP said that the equipment works fine
in other vehicles, AND when the alternator is supplying voltage. That leaves
one thing to test first..... the battery.

And yet, all your knowledge, design, theory, and education didn't point
directly at the battery. Sadly, it wasn't just you, thus confirming my
statements.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

I looked at the cable connecting the battery negative and the body, and it
looks pretty clean -- no wear, no corrosion, etc. About replacing it, it
didn't seem straightforward to replace it (though I'm sure it is; I'm just
not seeing it).

Perhaps we could troubleshoot it to find the main source of the problem.
Then I may end up bringing it into a garage anyway to repair it (unless it's
something I can do), which, if I do, they could do this one as well.

Thanks for your help!

Neil

 

And countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage
was already measured *and* reminded you that a running alternator will
pull the voltage up to the charging voltage regardless of the condition
of the battery (with the exception of a shorted cell) - I guess
"reminded" is not an accurate word there since you apparently never were
aware of that in the first place, and refuse to acknowledge it or admit
your initial error on that (and other) points. Man - you *have* to be a
liberal democrat.

And you ignore the field experience. Again, to hear you prattle,
technical knowledge *plus* field experience is worse than field
experience alone (and, even though you won't admit it, you have
demonstrated quite the opposite).

Oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can
provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether Mr.
Alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. No doubt you
are one of these people that I've come across that would argue with
someone that increasing electrical load does not affect the mechanical
load (torque requirements) on an alternator.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

And countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage was

Battery voltage isn't the issue, DROP in that voltage under load IS.

Alternator is not the issue, since the problem occurred while it was not a
factor.

My politics are not a factor in what I'm saying, but liberals would tend to
say that education beats experience, where I'm saying exactly the opposite.

You haven't demonstrated any real field experience, save for a few examples,
like a crane last year.

Clearly you are taking this out of context, as the implicastion was idle on
up, not below idle. This is just one example of your desperate grab for
something to prove me wrong, when any Experienced tech knows vehicles don't
run below idle. Only in a textbook does lower than idle exist.

False. Again, another example of how desperate you are to prove me wrong.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

And of course you have to do all your terminating of each individual
strand while "unravelling" the bundle as little as possible. Blechh.

File working with Litz wire under "things that build character" and
"things you can brag about having done once, but never want to do
again." Also a good rite-of-passage for junior engineers

 

Except id does not ALWAYS work with th engine running either. Yes, the
battery should be checked, but it HAS been checked adequately at this
point

 

MAX, the instructions I gave at the very beginning for doing the load
test accomplished all of this. Also -If you do the voltage drop test
with the engine running, you are taking the battery entirely out of
the equation, and still getting a valid "voltage drop" test.


With the battery IN the equation, the voltage DROP is still valid, and
doing the "drop" test by measuring voltage at both source and load,
and subratcting to get the "drop" gives you a valid voltage drop, even
if the battery is only an 8 volt source. IF there is no voltage drop,
and the voltage at the load is too low, then obviously the source
voltage is ALSO low (or there would be a voltage drop).
If the battery (source) voltage droops under load, ses, definitely you
have a bvattery problem - but this is NOT the case in THIS case.

As for using a dedicated load tester, the OP does not have one - but
he DOES have headlights, blower motor, and a starter, which allow him
to perform a minimum of 2 very valid load tests on the battery with
only his recently purchased VOM. This allows him to LEARN something.

 

Still not muddy enough yet, bill?

Matt

 

You previously refused to believe that the charge voltage in many cars
drops a bit at idle, which it truly does. And you continue to ignore
that the inverter cut itself off with the engine running (where the
battery is not a factor).

Inverter turned itself off *with* *engine* *running*, but you're right -
alternator was not the issue - voltage drop elsewhere was (battery was
not a factor with the alternator running).

Not really - you've done a pretty good job of that on your own.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

A fact that Max has refused to acknowledge even onece though it has been
pointed out to him several times.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I can see that you are not a member of the Dodge trucks group or you would
already know this.

 

True that.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')