Problem With Power Outlet

I'm not sure why the problem with testing the battery, since you

Originally, the advice I received here (as well as that from the dealer
service rep we're discussing) was just to replace the battery. In my
original post I said that while I don't rule out it needing a new battery, I
was asking if it could be anything else. Hence, this discussion.

I'm pretty ignorant about these things. But it seems to me that dropping
from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop (though maybe I'm wrong). If you're dropping
that much, then once the battery gets old again, you'll be back to where you
were. But, as you note, swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring.

Yes, agreed. The issue, from my perspective, is I'd rather get to the source
of the problem, rather than replace the battery, which may resolve it enough
for the inverter to work, only to have the inverter not work again once the
battery gets a little old. If it turns out that a complete rewire is
necessary, then that would be something to consider (save on cost for
short-term resolution). But at this point that's not clear. It may not
require a complete rewire.

Neil

 

Sorry Max, but you resort to such childish actions when you get your ass
kicked as you did by most of the posters in this thread, not just me. I
find it funny that you keep thumping your chest claiming your the only one
with 20 years of experience and then come out with shit like an alternator
will produce full voltage at ANY RPM, hahahahahahahaha. I at least can
explain my statement and even if you don't like it or can't understand it,
it doesn't make it wrong and the only one whining about it is you. Yours
OTOH, is complete BS and in no way be backed up because it , as usual for
you, is completely WRONG. Talk about posting style, 20 Years, LOL!!!

 

It is something else. DC likes to save money where it can and they probably
didn't expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage
drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm
they will get at full rated current, not on voltage drop. While there is a
slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem, it will
be a temporary solution. There could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad
chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized
wires.

You are completely correct in your assements. The drop IS huge but is
expected and like I said above, DC was not worried about the voltage drop
here either. They just made sure that the super high current drawing grid
heater would get enough current to function and that the wires would not
burn up and that's what they went with. By doing that, they save money on
both the wire and the installation as heavier wire is more expensive and
more difficult to work with. What Max does show however is his willingness
to waste resources and money due to paranoia. As they say, if it ain't
broke, don't fix it and if the engine was cranking and operating properly as
claimed by him, then there was no valid reason to replace the batteries
other than paranoia.

You are looking at it from the correct perspective and hopefully learned a
little about electrical tracing as well. The problem IS in the wiring and
rewiring the front outlet is really not that big of a deal and just about
anyone that has installed a car stereo could do it. Good luck with whatever
decision you make.

 

I have serviced a lot of vehicles that used mobile equipment needing the
power outlet or cigarette lighter plug.

Some sneaky ones gave symptoms like yours. They would work when the
engine ran and the alternator was pumping out it's 14+ volts, but die
fast with the engine off. I some of these cases, well several over the
years, it was just a crappy push on clip connector on the back of the
lighter socket. With full power in the system, the bad connection would
arc and work, with the lower power, it wouldn't pass enough voltage to
take the 10A 'turn on' power surge needed by these systems.

Just a thought for you. It could just be an easy loose connection fix.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

 

And of course your're right.

When determining what plurality to apply to the verb, you look at the
plurality of the implied subject.

In the sentence "Neither knows the answer," the implied subject is
"person," as in "Neither (person) knows the answer." The implied subject
is singular, so the verb should also be singular, or 'knows' in this case.

Had the sentence been "Both know the answer," the implied subject is the
plural "persons" or "people," as in "both (people) know the answer," so
in that case 'know' is the correct verb.

QED.

 

Bill Putney wrote:

Yeah, a pain in the a$$ to work with.

;-)

 

If you're talking about reading 15 volts with the engine running and
only 12.5 with it off, that's not a huge drop. Its just the
characteristic of a lead-acid battery. When the engine is running, the
operating voltage must be high enough to CHARGE the battery. A lead-acid
battery, fully charged, will read about 12.4-12.5 volts at rest. Even
after a significant amount of discharge, it will still only be down to
about 12 volts. By the time its showing 11 volts at rest, its
essentially dead. Now if you want to re-charge it, you cannot do so
simply by connecting it to a 12.5 volt source. In order to cause the
chemistry of the battery to "work in reverse" and convert electrical
energy into stored chemical energy, you have to exceed the threshold
charging voltage, which is around 13.8 to 14.0 volts.

 

LOL, you really should follow your own advice here Maxi. Mr 20 year
experience that doesn't even know how to test for a bad ground or what a
voltage drop is.

And in 20 years, you still don't know what in the hell you are doing.

 

Originally, the advice I received here (as well as that from the dealer

Well, I'd say you are faced with two issues, and its probably a good idea to
remedy both, if you have time and resources.

In the case of a Cummins Ram, the grid heater cycles numerous times at start
up. It puts a large load the system so the drop is quite noticable.

Your last line is precisely why I've advocated a load test of the battery.
In my area, such a test is quick and easy, and usually free. Its a very easy
way of determining if the battery is up to the task at hand. I think your
example of "parts replacment = a little more voltage" applies very well
here. You could replace the wiring to the port, and get a bit more voltage,
only to lose it again as the battery continues to age. On the other hand,
if you load test the battery and it passes, then you've pinpointed the
wiring as the culprit, and you can replace only the wiring. In my opinion,
it'll cost a bit more to rewire the port, since doing it correctly may
involve purchasing a relay and a switch, as well as running the wire so as
to be both cosmetically and practically done. However, if you do it
yourself, the cost would be less out of pocket and more in time spent.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)


news:rCVRf.3610$...

 

What Max does show however is his willingness

Paranoia? Ok, lets look at the facts. The truck requires 1500CCA, and weighs
7000lbs. So if I use the criteria of "dead battery" to judge when I should
replace them, I'm likely to find myself sitting somewhere. Keep in mind on a
Cummins Ram, I'm drawing on the batteries to run the grid heater, THEN I'm
cranking the engine. So If I wait till the cranking speed seems too slow,
I'll be dead in the water.

Now, you might say, no problem, just call for a jump start. Yup, thats a
great idea for most vehicles. On a truck with two batteries, you would be
hard pressed to find anything that will jump start it. Another diesel pickup
would work, but we typically don't travel in packs. So I'd have to call for
someone to tow my truck.

As mentioned, it weighs 7000lbs. Not many people have something that will
tow it. Call AAA? Sure, thats great, only the fine print I saw said they
wouldn't pay for towing anything over 8000GVWR.... my truck is at 8800. So
if I want to get towed home, I'm not only waiting for the tow truck, but I'm
paying him a premium price, depending on where I am, and where I wish to go.
And then I'm buying a set of batteries.

Seemed cheaper to simply buy two new batteries after load testing and noting
they were borderline. $130 beats the hell out of stranded in the cold
waiting for a tow truck that will cost $100+ just to show up, not to mention
cost to go somewhere.

BTW, Tbone, your definition of "paranoia" is most well trained technicians
definition of "preventive maintenance".

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

If the cranking speed seems slow, then you replace them. Why would you wait
until the winter to ge stuck? Your words were that everything was operating
normally.

And what do you thing will show up.. I bet it will be another truck with the
capability to jump start yours.

Again, that is if you wait until the batteries fail. Not only do you not
wait that long, you replace them years before it is needed.

I guess it also shows the stupidity of using such a vehicle as your personal
transportation. With AAA, the truck will show up for free and jump start
you.

Preventive maintenance is also used to cover for paranoia and replacing the
wrong parts. I agree that if a battery truly fails a valid load test, it
should be replaced, even if it still sorta works but if the battery simply
doesn't show full capability due to age but is still within spec, then you
are just wasting money and resources. Your initial example did not indicate
potential failure, simply slightly less performance due to age.

 

Sure, most parts degrade with time, but the old parts might have lasted
10 more years and 100,000 miles. It is nuts to replace working parts in
lieu of proper troubleshooting.


Matt

 

Yes, I JUST missed the slide rule era, by one year at Penn State.

Matt

 

No, you haven't. It could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly
the laptop charger or the laptop battery may be failing and drawing way
too much current while charging. All you have ruled out with a load
test of the battery is ... drum roll please ... the battery.


Matt

 

If the cranking speed seems slow, then you replace them. Why would you

It was. But given the age of the batteries, I figured a load test was in
order.

Yeah, and my lack of "paranoia" would have cost me for a jumpstart AND new
batteries.

Really? So if I know they are factory batteries, and I know those start a
downhill spiral at three years, and I replaced them at FOUR years, whats
paranoid about that? I mean, if I'm to believe your incessant rants about
how Mopar puts substandard items in their vehicles, I should have replaced
the batteries at 24 months, correct?

A 36 month battery goes 48 months, and there isn't any potential for
failure?

Oh, thats right, just because it has power, doesn't mean its actually
powered.


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

No, you haven't. It could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly

Yeah, I'd agree only...... in the OP Neil describes the operation of the
inverter and accessories as proper and within normal parameters when used in
other vehicles, and when the engine is running in the present vehicle.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Yes he did, but if one of those components was slowly failing it may
have been borderline enough to work in one vehicle and not another
simply due to the normal variation between vehicles.


Matt

 

20 years? He's just a pup. I was wrenching when he was born, by the
sounds of it.

 

The main source is elsewhere, but fixing this one is simple and needs
to be done anyway, as it will just get worse - and IS worse when
headlights and rear defogger are on along with the heater fan, or when
you step on the brakes or blow the horn. You have .05 volt drop with
something like 25 amps of load.Make the load 50 amps and you have at
least .1 volt drop.

 

For crying out lowd Max, how do you think they arrived at the
cranking amp rating (not the published figure) for the battery???

Give it a rest already - you've had your butt kicked - admit it.