Problem With Power Outlet

Neil - Daniel's point was that to really know what's going on *at* *the*
*port* (where the inverter gets its ground and power), you need to put
the two meter leads on the two voltage points (i.e., 12V and ground)
*in* *the* *port*. By putting one lead of the meter on chassis ground
(i.e., not the groung terminal inside the port), you are not getting an
accurate reading of what the inverter is seeing *at* *the* *port*. IOW,
different ground points in the vehicle will not read the exact same
voltage - especially if there is a bad ground connection, which has
already been alluded to, may be a contributing factor in your problem.

To reiterate, when Daniel said "That would be correct procedure if the
clean, shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the
location where the power outlet gets its ground", in a round-about way
he was saying "With the one lead on the shell of the port for positive
voltage, put the other meter lead on the center terminal inside the port
for the ground" (because not all grounds are at the same voltage -
theoretically yes - in reality, no).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

It's pretty easy: you just ignore people who rant or curse or berate, and
you end up with some good information.

 

You're cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming
up with wrong conclusions. The observed problem is occurring both
*with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running.

Neil posted this:

**Rear Power Outlet (Engine On)
----------------------------------
**Outlet alone: 13.5
**With inverter alone: 13.4
**With charger alone in inverter: 13.3
**With laptop plugged in (off and charging): 12.0
**With laptop plugged in (on and charging): Inverter turned off

While certainly if the inverter turned itself off with engine running
(and alternator over-riding anything you could say about the battery),
it absloutely would turn off with the engine off - which he, *of*
*course*, also found to be the case.

What is the common thread of low voltage *BOTH* with engine running and
with engine not running? It is not the battery because (as has been
said, excluding a shorted cell or two) it is *NOT* *IN* *THE* *PICTURE*
*WHEN* *THE* *ENGINE* *IS* *RUNNING*. The most likely common threads
are a bad ground or voltage drop in the wiring. To repeat: The battery
is not a factor with the engine running since the alternator will force
the regulating voltage in spite of a weak (non-shorted) battery.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I already covered that, Mr. T - see my previous post. I called it a
perpetual motion machine.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

No it would not. It would have power but it would still not be powered.

 

OK, I stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would
be. He suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. I tested it
with your test, and got 12.9V, so that's a good ground

Doing the test you suggested earlier, I placed the black on the negative
post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and
turned on the lights. With the VM on the 2000 mV setting, it read 007.

 

I dunno. I tried another ground -- some metal in the engine block, and using
that test, it only showed 6V.

 

OK, I can try that. But I was actually responding to clare's post
(
"I would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative
post, and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights
and heater fan. You will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to
get an accurate reading, but start on a range above 12 volts, to be
safe. I suspect you will read over 1 volt drop, in which case you need
to repair the body ground."

 

With all due respect, I've taught the trade, and spent half my life in
it. All texts I've got say 2.1 volts per cell, and a BIA (Battery
Industry Association) document I can't seem to find right now states
up to 2.2.

My experience has been that 2.1 is most common, but as I stated, I do
have a couple AGM batteries that are 2.01 and 2.075 was standard for
"tropical" batteries when I was in Africa. This is because they use
lower density acid to slow down self discharge at high temperatures.


State of Charge Specific Gravity Voltage volt/cell
12V 6V
100% 1.265 12.7 6.3 2.1
75% 1.225 12.4 6.2 2.06
50% 1.190 12.2 6.1 2.03
25% 1.155 12.0 6.0 2.0
Discharged 1.120 11.9 6.0

This is with 37% H2S04 electrolyte.
12.70 is generally accepted to be the standard SG of battery acid at
20 degrees C in Canada. It may be lower in the southern states. In
Africa 12.50 acid was standard in the seventies. You will notice that
only yeilds about 80% charge. Motorcycle batteries are generally 1.300
acid.
Heavilly cycled batteries, like EV traction batteries generally also
run higher SG acid, with 1300 being relatively standard. UPS batteries
generally run about 1250, and power utility and telecom batteries
(when lead acid is used) generally run 1215. Lower acid concentration
gives lower power, but longer life and less self discharge (generally)



There are also very small differences between the voltage of pure lead
batteries and those doped with calcium or antimony ( the 2 most common
doping agents)
There is a simple "magic number" of 0.845. We'll round it to .84.
Take the specific gravity of the acid and add 0.84 to it and you have
the open circuit battery cell voltage. SO - 1.270 acid yields 12.66
volts, or 2.11 volts per cell. 1.300 acid is 12.84 volts, or 2.14 per
cell.


12.50 acid yields (12.5 + .84)2.09 volts per cell, or 12.54 volts

1.360 acid would be (1.36 + .85)= 2.2 volts per cell.

I have never seen an authoratative source specify anything more than
1.36 for battery SG, or more than 2.2 volts per cell.

I only brought up the 2.2 volts per cell because Max stated the open
circuit voltage had to be over 13. whatever volts or the battery was
no good. If you go back in the "way-back machine" I THINK you will
find I stated maximum lead acid voltage is 2.2 volts per cell, and I
THINK I said 12.6 volts was normal battery open circuit voltage.

That is the generally accepted number in the North American automotive
industry.

 

I did read the OP and the 1000 or so posts after it. You were the one that

Especially when you claim I said it. Never said that at all. Learn to read.

Wait, who am I kidding, you might find facts if you did, and that would ****
up your entire day.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Hey Matt - do you get the idea that we are in the proverbial mud

Might be because neither of you read the facts as presented by the OP, and
neither of you know proper troubleshooting procedure.

Have a nice day.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Your battery is OK. Regardless what anyone else tells you.

Rubbish. With Alt charging, the system should show over 14v. Second, as yet,
no one has shown results of a load test, which is the ONLY way to find out
how it works under a load. Funny how that works......

--
Max

Care to try again?

--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving

 

Not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that

Read it again... what he describes is a check for voltage between battery
negative and negative ground..... which would read zero, since the two are
directly connected.
--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

You're cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up

Wrong. From the original post:
inverter works fine; <<

When the engine is running, the inverter works FINE.

position), the inverter will run for a few seconds, give an error beep, and
then shut down.<<

When the engine is OFF, the INVERTER shuts down.

Not hard to figure out, really.....

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

No it would not. It would have power but it would still not be powered.

AHAHAHAAHAHAHAH. And you say > I < don't know electricity........

Jackass......

Has power but isn't powered..... good one.......

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Care to try again?

Sure.... You read english right?

With Alt charging, the system should show over 14v.

Which is accurate info. I never said it NEEDED to be over 14v, but under
good conditions it will be. Nor did I say that the battery was bad if the
14v wasn't there.

Care to read english?

Oh thats right.... if it has power, its still not powered. Your words, not
mine.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

I think you don't understand - When you see the crossposting to 5 groups,
you're supposed to realize this problem is much more critical and complex
than it first appears, and one befitting the 500-note thread that it has
spawned.

I gotta say, this is one of the least interesting huge threads I've ever
seen on usenet. I don't see how you guys can stand to post in it. You'd have
to be bent on deliberate ignorance to need more than about 3 minutes to
troubleshoot this problem.

 

LOL

Actually, DieHards are all made by Johnson Controls, have been from
1967-1994, and then again starting in 1999 onward. Johnson Controls also
makes batteries for Duralast (AutoZone), Interstate, Kirkland (Costco),
Motorcraft (Ford) and some Everstart (WalMart). My current favorite
on batteries are buying the house brand from the local sporting goods store
which
always has sales, their manufacturer is GNB aka Exide. Exide makes
batteries
for Napa, Champion, and some Everstarts as well.

The local sporting goods store is usually staffed by young kids who
wouldn't know a battery from an alternator, and I've never been hassled
by them when bringing back a battery for warranty exchange. They
also sell a lot of batteries and I've only seen batteries there that have
manufacture
dates older than 3 months in the really oddball sizes that hardly anyone
uses.
And frankly if you need an oddball battery your better off buying it dry and
adding the electrolyte, that is how most motorcycle batteries are sold.

I usually buy the most expensive battery with the longest warranty and as a
preventative
maintainence item I simply replace all vehicle batteries I have at the 5
year
mark, whether they need it or not. By then the battery has gotten into the
prorate amount, so by doing this I really end up paying the same amount
every 5 years for a battery that I would have if I bought a cheap battery,
and I'm guarenteed to have a good battery in the car.

At my job I have a dozen or so UPS's I manage (among other things) that
use lead acid gel cells, and the UPS's have computers that monitor and
test the batteries regularly. Lead Acid cells, whether gel, or wet, or
spiral wound, or whatever, all work the same way. Over time their
internal resistance rises and their capacity drops, as more and more of
the plate sulfates, and after 10 years they are finished. And this happens
no matter whether you have a $2K computer and charging system on
the things or a $10 trickle charger consisting of a transformer and a
diode. All the fancy computerized charger does for you is to add perhaps
2-3 years of usable life on the battery, tops.

The problem with Sears is that they are simply too greedy. In the case
with my wife's Diehard, it had already gotten into the prorate period
on the warranty, and we would have ended up getting something like a
20 buck credit on purchase of a new $60 Diehard. But with Sears, instead
of taking the $40 they held out for the entire $60, and I told them screw
you
and we left, so they ended up getting nothing. I'll still buy wrenches,
screwdrivers and sockets there, but I'll never buy a battery there again.

Ted

 

A lot of this depends on the CCA rating of the battery and the size of the
engine. If you have a huffing massive CCA rating battery and a tiny
1500cc engine that is in good tune that your driving every day, you can
easily
get 10 years out of it. Of course, by the 10th year the battery is probably
down to 15% of it's original
capacity and if the engine doesen't fire on the 2nd or 3rd revolution your
going to have to tow it, which a lot of people find out after the fact, to
their sorrow.

The cost of a single tow, or the yearly cost for AAA membership to get
the 'free' towing really dwarfs what you would pay if you just changed the
battery more often. Not to mention the inconvenience of getting stuck.
Jumping isn't always an option, and if you cross the cables your going
to be really spending a lot more than just for a new battery - it's a lot
easier to do than people think, when your trying to jump a car at
11PM in the dark in the middle of a rainstorm. The
starting system of a vehicle is not what you want to gamble with.

Unfortunately in the US the trend is to oversized engines stuffed into a
tiny engine compartment so there's not a lot of room for the battery,
so a lot of vehicle manufacturers I think size the battery too small.

Ted

 

140 watts at 12 volts is 10 amps, actually it will be more. That's alot of
continuous current if you actually are using 140 watts. I would check the
lighter socket, the wires to it, and the fuse block connections. With two
people, one to plug the inverter in and out and the other to measure voltage
at key points like the battery, up to the lighter, it should be easy to see
where the voltage is dropping.