PhotoRADAR lens any good?

Sorry, Budd - it happened. See these articles:
http://www3.roanoke.com/columnists/gottstein/11342.html
and
http://www.fcw.com/geb/articles/2001/sep/geb-comm2-09-01.asp

This was discussed on this ng back in '04
(http://groups.google.com/group/rec....fed846907b3def14?tvc=1&hl=en#fed846907b3def14),
and Nate Nagel posted links to those as well as another article with the
documentation - unfortunately the link to that other article is now
dead. The article make it clear that there are many cases in which
public safety was sacrificed for profits - yellow duration was
intentionally made short to up the take when it was clearly shown that
slight increases in yellow duration reduced red-light running
infractions (by 96% as stated in one article).

From the first article:

"A 2001 report entitled “The Red Light Running Crisis: Is it
Intentional?” commissioned by U.S. House of Representatives Majority
Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, and researched by the non-partisan General
Accounting Office of Congress, found some startling information about
these camera enforcement programs.

"From Oregon to California to Arizona, to right here in Virginia,
traffic engineers have shortened yellow light times to catch motorists
going through red lights.

"You think I’m hung up on conspiracy theories? Think again. Reports
abound of local governments tampering with light timing to increase
local government revenues by handing out more traffic fines.

"Two attorneys representing motorists in San Diego forced the release of
confidential documents describing that safety was never the primary
consideration of the red light camera program in that city. None of the
cameras were placed at any of San Diego's 10 most dangerous
intersections. Instead, the documents showed that the camera operators
purposefully sought out mistimed intersections as locations for red
light cameras to trap motorists and net a new source of revenue for city
hall. A single camera brought San Diego $6.8 million in just 18 months
in 2000-2001.


"In Beaverton, Ore., TV reporters timed the length of the yellow lights
at intersections without camera enforcement and found it to be a
consistent four seconds. When they timed the lights with camera
enforcement, yellow only lasted for three seconds – across the city.

"Yellow signal time at intersections is directly related to red-light
running: When the yellow light is short, more people run the red light.
Inadequate yellow times cause motorists approaching an intersection to
come to a sudden stop, or force them to enter the intersection on a red
light. In Virginia, a study conducted in 2001 in Fairfax County found
that simply increasing the yellow time at a given intersection by 1.5
seconds reduced red-light infractions by 96 percent, which was
significantly better than the drop in infractions resulting from the red
light cameras they had installed."

"In Mesa, Ariz., after the city increased yellow times at its
intersections in response to motorist complaints, red-light runners
dropped by 70 percent. The camera program turned into a big money loser,
because it cost more to run the cameras than the ticket revenues they
were generating."


From the second article:

"'One of the most troubling aspects about the use of red-light cameras
is that they turn a key function of law enforcement over to private
contractors', said Marshall Hurley, a Greensboro, N.C., lawyer.

"'Red-light surveillance cameras combine the worst traits of government
arrogance and corporate greed,' he told subcommittee members. In many
localities, 'the camera schemes are based on the concept of a government
kickback' in which companies that supply and operate the cameras collect
a portion of the fines.

"In North Carolina, it's $35 of each $50 fine. In San Diego, it's $70 of
each $271 fine. 'Both the government and its contractors have an immense
financial stake in the violation of traffic laws,' he said.

"In San Diego, motorists who have been ticketed have filed a
class-action suit contending that contractor Lockheed Martin IMS
tinkered with sensors and selected intersections with short yellow
lights to maximize the number of motorists who could be ticketed.

"Former San Diego Mayor Roger Hedgecock, now a radio talk show host,
denounces red-light cameras for increasing the number of rear-end
collisions as motorists make sudden stops for short yellow lights.
Lengthening the time for yellow lights would cut red-light running as
effectively as installing red-light cameras, Hedgecock contends, adding
that a study by the city of Tempe, Ariz., reached the same conclusion.
"'But here's the rub.' Tempe also hired Lockheed Martin IMS to install
red-light cameras at a number of intersections, and 'the Lockheed Martin
contract prevents the city of Tempe from extending the yellow light
interval where Lockheed's cameras are in place,' he said."


A paragraph that I posted to that thread in '04:
"I guess my take on the whole thing, since people's lives are at stake
from red-light runners, is that camera ticketing can be used, but *NOT*
until the legal system is set up to pay a *hefty* bounty to citizens who
accurately report a short-cycled yellow, and the municipalities are
forced to: (1) pay the bounty without delay and without challenge when
the report is certified to be correct (false reporting would be met with
a stiff fine to counter people who just want to put a roadblock in the
way of the legal system), and (2) Shut down the camera until the
intersection's timing system is subsequently *certified* to be within
the legal parameters (which would be somethng like 4 seconds for a
typical intersection). "

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Heh heh! I take it that you're joking, but, in case you're not, I'm
sure they are keenly aware of the fraud schemes that have been set up
with these cameras in the name of public safety when municipal revenues
and private greed are the real motivation in many cases. If that can be
eliminated (i.e, safeguards put into place to ensure that the yellow
light timing is not manipulated) then I would have no problem with them.

Otherwise innocent citizens (presumed guilty when "caught" by the
cameras, or, worse, when injured or their cars damaged in a rear end
collision) are powerless against the corruption.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Well Budd you just keep on pissing into the wind. From the Texas
Dep't. of Transportation website...

"Speed limits on Texas highways are set by the 85th
percentile method, which represents the speed the
majority of drivers will be traveling at or below.
This is a sound engineering principle used to set
speed limits on highways nationwide for the past
60 years."

So, the limits are set to guarantee that statistically at least 15% of
drivers will be speeding. The part I disagree with is the "sound
engineering principle." It is neither sound nor is it engineering. It
is someone's 'good idea' from 60 years ago.

 

Hi...

Only needs a little editing...

"... to guarantee that statistically at least 15$ of drivers will be
available to pay an optional tax"

Take care.

Ken

 

According to your previous reply, I seem to be in error, but I don't
remember being in this group in '04 or seeing those posts.

I am not joking about requesting info from DOT. To be honest, I find your
implication that I was joking about public safety to be insulting, but as
I've learned from other newsgroups, apologies are unknown in Usenet.

As for notifying DOT of fraud schemes, if the Fed DOT has regs being
violated, then public apathy ("let someone else get involved / do it") is
why they are getting by with it.

How can the criminals be caught if they are not reported?

Budd

 

Fine, at least I'm doing something instead of whining about it.

Budd

 

Hah! No apologies, huh? See my post in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....6a969?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#555a317d1116a969

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Mr. Putney;

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2003r1/Ch4.pdf

Complete manual: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2003r1/pdf-index.htm

FHWA homepage: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/

Now you know if there are Fed regs or not and that if lights are set too
short, they can be sued, but you better have evidence.

Budd

 

Thanks for posting that, Budd. I now have it bookmarked.

Note that those are mainly "guidleines" (3 to 6 seconds, with longer
durations reserved for higher speed roadways) in there, so it leaves
things to judgement of the highway engineers and authorities. But the
concerns would be where a given city would have some intersections with
no cameras at one yellow duration, and otherwise similar intersections
with cameras, and the intervals are noticably shorter on those (even if
neither duration technically violates the low end of the guidelines.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

The problem is to determine if the shortened light duration is deliberate,
or just human error. Man is fallible, obviously, or he wouldn't need laws to
protect himself from himself.

And, please, never accuse me of joking about safety. I spent too many years
working in a muffler factory where you could tell how long a person had been
employed by the number of fingers missing. I'm one of the rarities in that I
still have all mine.

Cya,

Budd