No help or wrong help for Detroit?

Because they did!

He would be the exception. When Saturn first offered the no haggle
"deal", the profit margin on the cars was far higher than any other GM
brand. What people want, and your local dealer must have offered, is
to be able to buy a car at a fair price without having to spend days
doing so.

The fact that dealers steal your keys when they test drive your trade
tells it all.

*************************
Dave

 

That is not fair. You aren't even from the US, so how would you know.
Detroit is nothing like that at all. Of course, we can hope that one
day it might rise to that level, but until then all Americans know
that Detroit is far, far worse.

*************************
Dave

 

You're not telling me anything new. In 2002 we went there with my mom and
my sister and my brother in a Corolla on our way to Canada to vacation. We
saw what once was a beautiful old hotel right over the railroads.

Charles of Schaumburg

 

I still think one has to fail an intelligence test to drive an SUV up here
in the 'burbs. Most people could do much better for gas mileage and
ability to transport people and stuff with a good mini-van, they never go
off road and if they knew how to drive properly, driving in the snow and bad
roads isn't such a problem.

Driving an SUV doesn't really make one safer in those situations. You may
have 4 wheel drive (most here don't) but you still have only 4 wheels
braking and the contact patch doesn't automagically get bigger with SUV's.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other"

- Benjamin Franklin.

Charles of Schaumburg

 

Talking about cliches (and urban myths) the correct statement is actually
"the exception that TESTS the rule"... but "not a lot of people know that",
to quote Michael Caine.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

 

The imports intend to make money. Offering a longer warranty cuts into
profits. If the cars are considered reliable, people will choose them in
spite of short warranties. My Toyota had a 3/36 bumper-to-bumper and a 5/60
on the powertrain. That's good enough.

The domestics were largely driven to longer warranties to reassure people
the cars would last, or at least not surprise them with big bills down the
road just to keep running.

It might be interesting to know what percentage of cars are sold with longer
optional, extra-cost warranties. We declined same on our Toyota.

 

And now, for extra credit, who can cite a usage in which "prove" and
"test" are synonymous?

 

Automakers test their new models at their proving grounds.

 

That makes no sense at all!

How many different brands & models does GM have? You can often buy
almost the same car as a Chevrolet, Pontiac, GMC, Buick, and
(formerly) Oldsmobile.

What about Ford that often sells almost the same car as a Ford, a
Lincoln, and a Mercury?

How many models do Honda, Toyota, and Nissan sell compared to GM and
Ford? In my experience the Japanese rooted companies offer fewer
models with wider appeal instead of a model for every type of person
which has historically been the US model.

 

This is as much a function of marketeers and MBAs running the American
companies while engineers run the Japanese ones, as it is a function of
the US auto regulatory system that makes it much less costly to offer a
bunch of different nameplates, grilles and taillamps on one basic car than
to produce various models with substantive differences.

You must also remember that only fractions of the offshore-based
companies' product ranges are sold in North America.

 

Imports have been expanding their model section in order to compete. The
Honda Accord, their van and the Highridge so call truck, are all built on
the same chassis. Toyota and Lexus have expand their range of vehicles,
using the same basic chassis, into the territory where the GM, Ford and
Chrysler rule the market, trucks, minivans and SUVs. That is where most of
it growth in the import brands has occurred over the past five years or so

mike hunt

 

Do they ever prove them at testing grounds?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

No, that is the customer's responsibility!

Matt

 

Minivans in general do not get substantially different mileage than an
SUV.

There is not a minivan made that drives as well in the snow as an SUV
can.

*************************
Dave

 

They get much better mileage than all but the microSUVs. An SUV with
the same interior room and comfort won't come close to a minivan in mileage.

AWD minivans will drive as well in snow and probably better than most
truck-based SUVS, unless the snow is more than 12" deep.

Matt

 

Because it ain't so. That may be the meaning, but "prove" is the
correct word.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_201.html

 

Well, that's not the implication at the end of that discussion, is it?

"This is not far removed from "the exception tests the rule." Under the
somewhat embarrassing circumstances, that's about the best I can expect."

I do't know how much 'cross-quoting' there is in the various web discusion
groups but I like this one:
"The true origin of the phrase lies in a medieval Latin legal principle:
exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis, which may be translated as
"the exception confirms the rule in the cases not excepted".

From
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-exc1.htm

Or this:
"I must say that I agree with Popper. The exception does not prove the
rule -- it disproves it absolutely!"

From

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/28/messages/829.html



Maybe I just learned something.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

 

That seems unlikely. Which models do you compare to arrive at this
conclusion?

I bought a Sienna the same year a colleague bought a Durango. He gets 17-18
on the highway and I get 24 to 26. His vehicle appeared to have less
interior room.

I'd admit to this but ground clearance counts for a lot and some non-SUVs
offer decent ground clearance. Older Volvo wagons and the VW EuroVan(*) had
more ground clearance than average and they did OK in the snow. The Volvo
RWD wagons, with their limited-slip differentials and good snow tires do
VERY well on snow and get good gas mileage and offer good capacity.

The last two vehicles I saw stuck in the snow (just last night, as it
happens), were conventional sedans, were off the ground, with their bellies
on compacted piles of snow. My SCV (sport-cute-vehicle - a 2WD Rav4) had no
trouble in that same snowy parking lot. We did stop to help.

(*) - I'm not recommending that you buy a VW EuroVan. The Car Talk guys
summed the EuroVan up something like this, "Every time you take a trip, it
will be an adventure." They didn't exactly mean that in a good way...

 

I got get 28 on a trip and around 19 in town +/_ a couple and that is a
04 Sienna, a great vehicle. The roads around here get plowed fast, but
if I were living in the boonies I would have drive my 89 Trooper II.

 

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