Neon AC compressor cycling

Now, now, Matt. Just about the time I thought we were about ready for a
group hug, and you go and say something like that! 8^)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Ha, ha, ha... I couldn't resist. Anyone who will try to twist what we
say for the simple purpose of continuing to argue points that we never
made, warrants that comparison.


Matt

 

All well and good Bill, but we're talking about a situation where
the ambient air temperature is already low and the dew point is
so low that there is very little moisture content to begin with
(like Matts 20*F cite)

So you're agreeing with me that there is a point in temperature
where the AC compressor is not allowed to run because the system
pressure would be so low so as to lock the compressor out.

Well, I'm sure that Steve Lacker can get plenty of use out of his
air conditioning during the winter -months- but that is not the
question, the question concerns winter -conditions-, i.e., cold
temperatures, cold enough that the ambient temperature puts the
system pressure below the low pressure switch's cut out point.

It is in Wisconsin and Minnesota and Michigan and North Dakota
and Montana and New York and Alaska and probably quite a few
other states not to mention large parts of Canada.[/QUOTE]

Really? Here are some stats for Green Bay, which last I knew was in
Wisconsin and is reputed to be pretty cold. The average high temp in
the coldest month (January) is 24 F. Since this is an average, it is
rather likely that several days even in January are well above 24
degrees, especially since the record high is 50 for this month. Even
taking the high value you gave for compressor cut out (30 F), this means
that there would likely be several opportunities even during the coldest
month for the compressor to be operated. The next coldest months
average 29 for a high, so it should be really easy to run the AC a
couple of times a month during December and February.

http://www.weather.com/weather/climatology/monthly/USWI0288?from=search


What data do you have that supports your assertion above that it is
*always* below the compressor lockout temperature for months at a time
in the seven states you list above? I realize I'm combining your
statement with another poster's, but you basically refuting his
statement, so this is what you are claiming. I haven't checked Alaska
yet, and I suspect your claim does hold in many areas there, but I don't
think it holds in the other six states you mention.

Decided to take a minute and check Anchorage. Guess what? It isn't
much colder than Green Bay.

http://www.weather.com/weather/climatology/monthly/USAK0012?from=search


Matt

 

No - I was just giving you a hard time.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Nice, very nice....
The "taps" in Clarences Chrysler designed ballast resistor
equipped primary ignition circuit are where, do what, for what
purpose?

This whole thing is about a simple series circuit with two
resistive loads, there are no "taps" anywhere to anything.

Nice, very clearly shows voltage dividing circuits, but they in
no way resemble anything like a primary ignition circuit with two
resistors in a simple series circuit.

Same again... Doesn't resemble in any manner a primary ignition
circuit.

Same thing, no resemblance.

Getting redundant.

Very redundant.

Still no similarity to a very basic, very simple two resistor
series circuit that was/is being claimed to be a voltage divider.
Have I mentioned that this is all quite redundant, and so far off
the target that it borders on the ridiculous?

Wow, a voltage divider -rule-. Too bad that circuit shown is not
the same as the five previous voltage dividing -circuits- that
you gave urls for.
Or, put another way; if this is in fact a voltage dividing
circuit, where are the "taps" mentioned in the dictionary url
that you cited above, and the "taps" -shown- in the other five
diagrams?

 

It is moisture inside the car, not outside that the defroster is removing.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so we're blowing nice dry outside air that may or may not
have been heated. We need to run the AC compressor for what
reason again?

In other words, you weren't aware that there -is- a temperature
below which it would run.

Well, if you aren't here, then you must be somewhere else.

Okay, so you lack experience with cold climates, I don't.
This all easily explains why you have developed misconceptions
WRT AC compressor behavior in winter climates.
Simply stated, based upon the climatic conditions that you are
used to, it is reasonable to believe that at your rarely below 30
degree conditions, you would be running the defroster on a fairly
frequent basis, all of which makes the feel good notion of
running the AC in winter time to protect the system and keep
everything lubed rather pointless since it's going to happen
anyway given the winter conditions you're most familiar with.

Well if the electoral college carried any arguing points, you'd
actually have something valid here, but last time I checked,
these states are still inhabited by human being who do drive
automobiles and (hot damn) have internet access.

Well that would be nice if it were, but the thing is, I'm just
stating plain simple facts that can be easily verified.
Drop the Putney complex, there is no argument here, it's just a
simple fact of life. If you don't want to learn anything, it's
no skin off my nose. If your ego is so fragile that you can't
bear to be corrected, that's between you and your therapist.

"Pretty sure?" Might, maybe, shoulda, woulda, coulda?

Then there are people who actually -drive- the car down the road.
What do you suppose happens to the underhood temperature then?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that if the outside air
is already dry, there is no point in dehumidifying it to begin
with?

Wisconsin, 25 miles north of Milwaukee, 2 miles west of Lake
Michigan. Ever hear of 'lake effect snow'?

Right... I've stood outside in 28* below zero weather with a
windchill colder than minus 100* watching Milwaukee firemen try
to put out a fire where the water froze as it came out of the
fire hose nozzle. I've been in ice storms that killed the power
for over two weeks. I've walked out on the ice when Lake
Michigan froze solid. I've jumped the ice heaves on Lake
Winnebago many times in an automobile.

No Matt, you're right, nothing we get here could compare to those
+30* blasts that you get on occasion.

 

Yup, I see it every winter when there's a sudden cold snap before
the lakes and other bodies of water have had a chance to freeze,
a nice eerie fog hanging above the water. Do I need to tell you
that it's not advisable to venture out on the water in your car?

 

Yup, usual winter conditions for Lake Michigan, but then we know
not to attempt driving on it when it's still in its liquid state.

 

That's too bad, I was hoping on the second try you would get them correct.[/QUOTE]

Really? What did I post that was incorrect? Bear in mind that
those number came from a Ford Motor Company website.

Well, there would be considerable moisture -somewhere- in the
air, but odds are in my favor that you won't find cars driving

Twist? I'm just trying to determine what exactly 90+inches of
snowfall per year has to do with defogging the inside of a
windshield.

There (apparently) is no need for you to guess.

Jesus, I hope that wasn't your best shot.

 

Of course not... which is sufficient reason for me to retrieve
the owners manuals from both my 95 Dakota and 98 Intrepid.
No mention what-so-ever in either owners manual WRT running the
AC system in winter for any of the reasons that you cite.
Since Bill Putney has a vehicle almost identical to one of these,
I invite him to check -his- owners manual to see if there is any
mention of running the AC in winter to keep the seals lubricated.
[/QUOTE]

Won't be in the manual of a vehicle of that vintage - but try a mid
seventies and it will be there. Sixties too.
On the 95 and 98 vehicles the AC is operated by the defrost so the oil
gets circulated at least once in a while.

And how long will the R-134A stay at 20 degrees F under the hood of an
operating vehicle???? Not too long where I come from. And it gets a
heck of a lot colder than 20F.

6288 feet is possible in the eastern US. On August 21st is the "climb
to the clouds" race. The location? The Mount Washington Auto Road in
New Hampshire.

Generally I fly lower than that.

 

Can't help ya Bub, these conditions can only possibly exist on
Clare's planet. Go back to the part where you claimed "heavy
condensation on the windshield/backlight when you leave the car
sit?"
[/QUOTE]

And just what part of the planet do you live in???
Up here it can be below Zero F outside, and the car can be comfy warm
at 72F. The snow off your boots, and your coat, and your hair, melts
and turns to water, which then turns to vapour.
You leave the car, internal temp 70-72F sitting in the sun - and
everything is fine. The sun goes behind a cloud, or sets, and the car
cools very quickly. The windsheild gets a VERY heavy coating of frost,
and many times ice from the condensation on the glass freezing.

Fogging up with the heater on defrost? What's so

about that????
Generally the heater is not used in the recircuate mode in winter -
but occaisionally it happens. I KNOW the AC runs then - it's not cold
enough right now up here in the "great white north" to check if it
runs in any other position.

Understanding???
You haven't got a clue.

 

Which says exactly what Bill said above. Where does it say that two
resistances in series does NOT constitute a voltage divider?[/QUOTE]

Here, let's use PC Medic's definition;

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/v/v0142400.html

See the word "tap?"
See the word "available?"
See how they are used together?

Where is the "tap" in a ignition primary circuit?
Where is this available circuit tapped to?
Connected in series ain't "tapped."

Does the term 'center tapped transformer' ring a bell?

Or did Clarence and Bill forget to mention that the condenser is
shorted? Nope, can't be because he was speaking specifically
about a ballast resistor.

 

No?
Not in all cases - but that's why I recommended you use TWO meters.
Where does the voltage the coil does not see go?
Draw the diagram.
Draw the diagram of a voltage devider.
Make R1 (coil) .95 volts ( spec is .89 to 1.03) and R2 (ballast)1.2
(spec is 1.08 to 1.32)

Compare results to those you get with the volt meters.,
Yup - it's a voltage devider. You can call it anything else you like -
don't change anything.

 

Where it shows exactly what occurs with the coil/ballast.
Good greif -Charley Browne - the dumb buggers can't even read a
picture book.

 

I donno -- have we heard his answer yet as to the max altitude attainable
in a flying Neon?

 

Yup, that can happen if you sit and idle the engine long enough
creating an envelope of warm air in proximity to the low pressure
switch and/or evaporator temperature switch. Of course during
the winter, there are usually all manner of warning against doing
such things due to the dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning
(it's not just for garages anymore), so I fail to see how this
actually proves anything you've said or disproves anything that
I've said, or resembles anything that a intelligent person would
do, not to mention that -most- people actually drive their car
down a street or highway to get somewhere.

 

I've already told you.. Something just under 6288 feet in the eastern
US.
In addition,
Washington Highway #542 (Mount Baker) is 5140 feet at Artist's point
(for the western US)


If you care to take your Neon to Kashmir, the highest motorable road
in the world is in the Khardungla Pass, Kashmir, India. At its highest
point it climbs to an altitude of 5,682 m (18,640 ft). It was
completed in 1976 by the Border Roads Organization, New Delhi, and has
been open to motor vehicles since 1988. The Khardungla pass is one of
the three passes on the mountainous Leh to Manali road route.

In Europe, you can climb to 2822 meters in Andora, on the highest road
in the Pyrennes (Port d' Envalira), or in Austria, at Ötztaler
Gletscherstraße you can drive the highest paved road in the alps at
2822 meters.
In France at La Bonette you can drive to 2,802m .
In Germany, at Roßfeldringstraße-Kehlsteinstraße: 1720m
In Italy, Passo dello Stelvio, at 2,758m is the Highest Paved Road
Pass in Italy, and Tre Cime di Lavaredo, at 2,320m is theHighest Paved
Road Pass in the Dolomites
Pico Veleta (Sierra Nevada), at 3,375m is the Highest Road in Europe.
That is rougly 10,970 feet.

Not saying a Neon has driven any of these roads, other than the Mount
Washington and Mount Baker roads (which I am reasonably sure they
have) but the point is, it is VERY possible to drive a car on a road a
lot higher than most private recreational pilots will fly their
Spam-cans.

 

It's obvious that they're recommending to do this -before- you
store the vehicle. making certain that lubricating oil has been
circulated thruout the entire system in anticipation of the
period of no use. Ever hear of fogging a chain saw or 2 stroke
lawn mower before you store it?

Clouds and airframe icing has what to do with a vehicle driven
(presumably) at ground level?
Should we all be using AvGas in our cars for the same reasons
that it's used in airplanes?