Michelin tires and their problems

I have used Michelins for years but I find that I can find a lot of complaints on the internet about sidewall failure, especially with Costco tires.
Does anyone know if Costco is getting a lower quality product made to be more price competitive?


dq

 

No - all suppliers get the same quality tires if they are the same
model.

 

My Michelin X-Ones from Costco are checking on the sidewalls - and are
cracking in the tread area where the blocks meet the tire body - about 50k
on them and 4-5 yrs old, I'm starting to think about replacing them, I found
that after 4-5 yrs any tire I've owned is usually toast ( poor snow & wet
traction) I will replace the X-Ones with another set of X-Ones

complaints on the internet about sidewall failure, especially with Costco
tires.

 

Tires get an expiration date
Tuesday, May 31, 2005
By Timothy Aeppel, The Wall Street Journal
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05151/513329.stm

-----------

Main points:

Drivers are being advised to start paying attention to the age of
their tires.

Ford has begun urging drivers to replace tires after six years,
regardless of wear.

The tire industry says it's more important to monitor tread depth than
age and recommends that treads be at least 1/16 of an inch thick.

Some European car makers as well as Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. have
long warned drivers that tires are perishable.

-----------

Drivers who know to check tires for worn treads and low air pressure
now have something else to worry about: vintage.

Ford Motor Co., in a move roiling the tire industry, has started
urging consumers to replace tires after six years. The car maker says
its research shows that tires "degrade over time, even when they are
not being used." That means even pristine-looking spares that have
never left the trunk should be pitched after a half-dozen years.

That's a radical concept in the staid U.S. tire business, which
insists there's no scientific evidence to support a "use by" date for
tires. It would also surprise most motorists, who are taught that a
tire's lifespan is measured mainly by tread depth. The tire industry
says that tires are safe as long as the tread depth is a minimum of
1/16th of an inch, no matter what the age, and there are no visible
cuts, signs of uneven wear, bulges or excessive cracking. Other
trouble signs are if tires create vibration or excessive noise.

"Tires are not milk," says Daniel Zielinski, a spokesman for the
Rubber Manufacturers Association, the tire industry's main trade
group.

For many consumers, the issue never comes up, since passenger-car
tires last an average of 44,000 miles -- meaning they are usually
replaced before hitting the six-year mark. But many people simply
assume that unused spare tires -- even those that are a decade old --
are as durable as brand-new tires, and sometimes use those spares as
full-time replacements for the regular tires. Classic-car buffs and
others who drive only infrequently could also be affected by the
latest research.

In its new stance on tire safety, Ford is getting some support from
other researchers. Sean Kane, president of Safety Research &
Strategies Inc., an auto-safety research firm working with lawyers who
are preparing lawsuits arising from accidents thought to be linked to
aging tires, says older tires are a road hazard. Mr. Kane's group has
collected a list of 70 accidents involving older tires, which resulted
in 52 deaths and 50 serious injuries.

In a sense, the U.S. car industry is just catching up to global
standards. Many European car makers as well as Japan's Toyota Motor
Corp. have long warned drivers, including those who buy their cars in
the U.S., that tires are perishable. Many of them also use a six-year
threshold for the age of a tire.

DaimlerChrysler AG has already adopted a position parallel to Ford.
The car maker's Mercedes division had been telling drivers that tires
last only six years. But starting last fall, the Chrysler group began
including such a warning in 2005 owner's manuals. "We did do some
research and we found that's just a pretty safe and steady guideline,"
says Curtrise Garner, a Chrysler spokeswoman, adding that "it's a
recommendation, not a must-do."

Other car makers are also taking up this question, and some are
reaching a different conclusion than Ford. General Motors Corp.
spokesman Alan Adler says GM has discussed the aging issue, but
doesn't have any research that supports a move to such a guideline.
"We're not joining in the six-years-is-the-magic-number thing right
now," he says.

The age of tires already appears on tires, but as part of a lengthy
code that is difficult for average consumers to decipher. To find the
age of a tire, look for the letters DOT on the sidewall (indicating
compliance with applicable safety standards set by the U.S. Department
of Transportation). Adjacent to these letters is the tire's serial
number, which is a combination of up to 12 numbers and letters. The
last characters are numbers that identify the week and year of
manufacture. For example, 1504 means the fifteenth week of the year
2004.

Not only are the numbers difficult to interpret, but they can be hard
to locate: The numbers are printed on only one side of the tire, which
sometimes is the one facing inward when the tire is mounted on a
wheel.

Ford's new stance on tire aging is a direct outgrowth of the Firestone
tire recall that began in August 2000. That episode involved Firestone
tires failing suddenly, mostly on Ford Explorers, leading to a wave of
deadly crashes. The crashes sparked a series of lawsuits, including
monetary and personal-injury claims, some of which are pending.

Ford's new position won't affect those lawsuits. But it could play a
role in future legal action. Some attorneys who have sued over the
Firestone case are now mounting cases that focus on tire age.

John Baldwin, a Ford materials scientist who studied the root cause of
the Firestone problems and has spearheaded the car maker's continuing
research on tire aging, says Ford's intention is to develop a test to
help prevent another Firestone-type debacle. He says Ford's research
into the Firestone problem showed that as tires age, the chemistry of
the rubber changes as oxygen migrates through the carcass of the tire.
This leads to a weakening of the internal structure that can result in
tire failures. Driving in hot climates or frequent heavy loading of
vehicles speeds this aging process, he says.

In April, Ford posted a warning on its Web site saying that "tires
generally should be replaced after six years of normal service." The
company also plans to include similar wording in owner's manuals
starting with the 2006 model year.

Firestone spokeswoman Christine Karbowiak says the company can't
comment on Ford's new recommendation, because it hasn't seen Ford's
research.

Tire makers certainly don't want to see the six-year rule become any
more deeply ingrained. While it might seem that putting a limit on the
lifespan of tires would be a boon to tire makers, who would presumably
sell more tires, the costs and complications it could create are
considerable. Among other things, the industry is worried about the
logistical problems that would arise if customers suddenly started
demanding only the "freshest" tires. In some cases, tires take months
to move through distribution channels from factories -- through
wholesalers, and then on to retail outlets.

"We don't have any data to support an expiration date (for tires),"
says Mr. Zielinski of the RMA. He agrees that age can be a factor in
tire performance, but says it shouldn't be used as the sole reason to
determine that a tire is no longer usable.

Mr. Zielinski says Ford went public with its position without sharing
its research with the tire association or individual tire makers.
Ford, in turn, says that it presented its research in trade
publications and at a series of public forums, including a technical
meeting of the rubber division of the American Chemical Society in San
Antonio, Texas, two weeks ago. Ford has also given its research to the
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which is developing a
test to simulate the effects of aging on tires.

Ford's test involves putting inflated tires into an oven for weeks at
a time. The tires are then taken out and studied to see, among other
things, how well the layers of rubber hold together.

Strategic Research wants tires to be labeled more clearly with the
date they were produced, so consumers can better identify older tires
and, ultimately, an explicit expiration date.

 

An argument that seasonal tires (still mounted to wheels) should be
stored with the air taken out of them (ie deflated) ?

Also an argument that tires be filled with nitrogen? Perhaps some
other gas?

 

complaints on the internet about sidewall failure, especially with Costco
tires.

I am not absolutly positive but when I worked at a Ford store they were a
Goodyear tire dealer and we price matched with any competitor exept
Wal-mart,Costco and Sams because they had the same tire with the same part
number but they are different tires specifically made for those vendors,the
parts manager at the Ford store told me they are completely different tires.
like I said I don't *know*because I was just told that by the parts
manager.

 

Wish I'd been thinking in those terms a month ago. Tires with less
than 5000 miles, but over six years old, and I had a tread separation
just outside Austin. Cost me a fender skirt and a wheel cover on my
'78 Newport, (anybody out there got a hex dome type wheel cover,
Chrysler part numbers 3699496 (cover) + 3880842 (cap), Hollander
interchange 397A?

I'd felt a little vibration a week before, and had my tire shop look
at them. They noticed they needed rebalancing, but didn't notice
anything else. Oops.

My original factory space-saver spare is now in my garage, and a real
spare is now in my trunk...

 

Seems he knew about as much as most parts managers --------

 

Tires DO deteriorate with age - and there are many factors that
contribute.
Filling the tires with nitrogen instead of atmospheric air extends the
life of tires considerably, because atmospheric air is about 21%
Oxygen. The oxygen oxidizes components of the rubber - notably the
plasticizers, from the inside out. The oxygen (in the air) migrates
though the inner liner, around the cords, and eventually to the
atmosphere by osmosis.
Keeping tires out of direct sun and heat also helps - as both
UltraViolet and Ozone also deteriorate rubber.

Just about any tire I have had for more than 4 or 5 years, regardless
of mileage and tread-depth has lost significant wet traction, and also
start squealing on warm pavement. I threw away a 4 year old set of
TigerPaw Touring tires last fall with 3/4 tread on them so I would not
be tempted, in a moment of weakness, to put them back on the van when
the snows came off this spring.
Those tires wore like iron - and had about the same amount of
traction. When new, they were pretty good, but by 4 years, they were
definitely getting dangerous.

--------

 

I have used Michelins for years but I find that I can find a lot of complaints on the internet about sidewall failure, especially with Costco tires.
Does anyone know if Costco is getting a lower quality product made to be more price competitive?


dq


Below is a cut and paste from an e-mail in response to my query of Michelin, Canada


Thank you for visiting our Web site and sending us your e-mail.

Regarding your message:

<I have been buying Michellin tires at Costco for some years and it seems to
me that I am not getting the milage from them that I should be. I am also
finding a lot of info on the internet about side-wall failures that mention
Costco and your tires.
Here is my question: Do you produce different levels of quality for
different retailers. I know you usually get what you pay for, Costco is
very competitive on price and service, are they buying a lower quality
product, and how do I tell what grade of tire I am buying.
Thank you.>

All tires with the Michelin name are built to Michelin quality standards.
There are different tires built for different purposes and expectations but
the quality would be the same. If the tire has the same name on the
sidewall it would be the same tire regardless of where it was purchased.

If you have additional questions, please respond to this email
or you may call us at 1-888-871-4444 (toll-free) between
8:30AM and 6:00PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday to allow
one of our Consumer Relations Representatives to assist you.

Michelin North America
Consumer Relations Department

 

Horseshit. ALL manufacturers have firsts, seconds, thirds and so on, of
any given product. That's the nature of mass production. And since there's
always a buyer who puts a litle higher priority on price than the next
guy, there's always a market for those seconds. By the time you get to
thirds or fourths, the product often gets sold under a different name.
Fourths or fifths and below usually get destroyed or recycled.

But there's a thriving market for seconds.

 

When I worked for DC Canada, all autopar tires were made by Michelin. We had
complaints from dealers that the cost on the tires were more then what
Costco sold them for. Michelin told US (DC) that Costco tires were primarily
Blemished tires, that is why they were cheaper.

So I would have to agree with Daniel.

 

Which MUST be marked as such, IIRC. And they are referred to as
"blems". From my experience (over 30 years), blems stand up as well as
firsts.
If Michelin sells the tire with it's brand on it - and under a given
"model name", it's the same tire whether purchased from a BFG/Michelin
authorized dealer, Costco, or Canadian Tire.
You MIGHT get a lower quality version of the same carcass sold with a
different name on it (house brand tires) - although OFTEN the house
brand tire demands a higher quality spec than the Mfg name brand tire.

UniRoyal and BFG (Michelin) both had large tire plants here in
Kitchener up until about a decade ago, and Shell and ESSO (Atlas) had
their tires made by both companies at one time or other. The plant
employees would buy either the Shell or Atlas tire rather than the BFG
or UniRoyal tire because they knew the quality control was much more
strict on these "house brand" tires than on the OEM spec tires.

I always found these tires ballanced up with less weight than the OEM
brand tires, on average.

 

They aren't required to tell the customers that they are buying seconds?
What's to keep a business from selling seconds and charging full
price since, as far as the public knows, they are all the same tire.
Sounds fraudulent if that's the case.

Is it (legally) that way in the U.S. too (i.e., seconds or blems can be
sold as first run)?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

I can't think of any law in the US or Canada that would require them to do
so, no. Sears bought Tecumseh's seconds for *decades* and put 'em (without
any Tecumseh labelling, and with the Tecumseh engine numbers replaced with
proprietary Sears numbers) on zillions of Craftsman lawnmowers and
snowthrowers, and I never saw a sign in Sears that said "Our outdoor power
equipment is powered by Tecumseh's factory seconds".

Nuffin' but their conscience, if so equipped.

Think about it: Did you ever see a sign or label specifying that the tires
you were buying *are* firsts? Or did you just assume...?

 

Talking small engines in lawn mowers, etc....


Consumer Reports says those Honda engines in cheap mowers and power washers
do not contain the same expensive engine designs and parts as Honda made
equipment.

 

I don't see how a tyre with a blemish should perform in an inferior fashion,
though it should normally {presumably (dangerous assumption)} cost a bit
less. It's not as if the tread is duff. Just maybe some letters of the
embossed text are not clear, no? Or have I misunderstood what a "blemish"
is?

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling[/QUOTE]
Which MUST be marked as such, IIRC. And they are referred to as
"blems". From my experience (over 30 years), blems stand up as well as
firsts.
If Michelin sells the tire with it's brand on it - and under a given
"model name", it's the same tire whether purchased from a BFG/Michelin
authorized dealer, Costco, or Canadian Tire.
You MIGHT get a lower quality version of the same carcass sold with a
different name on it (house brand tires) - although OFTEN the house
brand tire demands a higher quality spec than the Mfg name brand tire.[/QUOTE]
[...]

 

Daniel, your assumption that Sears engines were Tecumseh seconds is
FALSE. Sears engines were built specifically for Sears by Tecumseh.
They came off the same line as the tecumseh branded engines, and some
were every bit as good as the tecumseh engines. The only difference
was in the QC spec. Tecumseh may have pulled one in 10 off the line
for inspection when building their own engines, and one in 100 for
Sears Craftsman. (or it might have been 1 in 100, and 1 in 1000).Sears
engines may have been required to meet a lower tolerance than the
Tecumseh engines - but many exceded that tolerance by a good margin.

As for "factory second" or "Blem" tires, in the several decades I was
in the automotive buisiness, ALL "Blem" tires sold in Canada were
clearly branded as such, and it was illegal to remove the markings for
sale in Canada. There was a local tire exporter that bought TONS of
blems and seconds from local tire companies and buffed off the brand
names. These were clearly marked (stamped into the rubber) "for export
only" or "Not DOT approved for highway use"
I installed thousands of "blem" tires over the years - all clearly
marked and sold as such. I'm not aware of consumer legislation in
Canada being relaxed in any way over the last 10 years or so. Now,
enforcement? Thats another joke.

 

In over 20 years of actively selling and installing tires (from the
late sixties on) the VAST majority of "blems" were white-wall related.
The white rubber was not exactly in the right place in the carcass, so
when the white-walls or white letters were buffed out they were not
totally white.
Some also were not as well balanced as "first run" tires - might take
more than 2 ounces of lead to ballance where a prime tire usually
ballanced with less than 1.5.
Some had blurred print on the sidewalls

Which MUST be marked as such, IIRC. And they are referred to as
"blems". From my experience (over 30 years), blems stand up as well as
firsts.
If Michelin sells the tire with it's brand on it - and under a given
"model name", it's the same tire whether purchased from a BFG/Michelin
authorized dealer, Costco, or Canadian Tire.
You MIGHT get a lower quality version of the same carcass sold with a
different name on it (house brand tires) - although OFTEN the house
brand tire demands a higher quality spec than the Mfg name brand tire.[/QUOTE]
[...]
[/QUOTE]

 

That couldn't hurt, but when they crack and "appear" old, the cracks are
always on the outside, while the inside looks pristine. I was taught that it
is ozone that really works on them, but I don't work for a tire company, so
I don't know. I can tell you that tires have prodigious amounts of
antioxidants in them, so apparently somebody is very worried about
oxidation.

It would be interesting to know whether tires last longer in areas with low
environmental ozone (pollution).