Looking for a mid-size domestic car recommendation

And why is it that there is such a difference, that you notice the
larger number of men? Is it that social programs are geared towards
women? Is it that there is a larger percentage of men who are
"mentally ill who have been thrown out of institutional care?

Or have we as a society made a large number of poor men "unemployable"
through criminal convictions that are referred to as "youthful
indiscretions" when they are done by the wealthy? Ask GWB & Bill
Gates how their Drug infractions have hurt their access to capital and
employment...... Just a thought.

 

How about in the 60's and 70's. And are you including all of the companies
overseas, because I don't think the readers of this thread were interested
in the output of those factories.

 

I forgot to add that market share is just as important as total number of
vehicles.

 

Apparently you don't even understand your own posts.
You said 'GM management manages to go from 50% market
share to 28% market share in a couple of decades.'
The ONLY time GM was at 50% was in the fifties. The
fact remains the volume of sales has grown from around
6 million, the time GM sold 51% of the vehicles sold
in the US annually, to around 18 million today of which
GM sells around 28%. GM sells more vehicle today, not
less, as you implied in your post. You do the math


mike hunt

 

I don't have a lot of compassion for people who demand "free" stuff
that somebody else has to pay for. Especially when that "somebody
else" is *me*.

Look, Dan, the group of people who want socialized medicine in
America are the same ones who demand free car repair. There is a part
of human nature that causes us to feel entitled to getting things at
no cost. The better among us resist the urge to demand stuff for
free.

Now there are things which government provides, however imperfectly,
because it is most expedient for it to do so. Not the best, mind you,
just the most expedient. National defense. Roads. The courts.
Police and fire service.

But medicine? We need to nationalize 1/7th of our economy? And in so
doing reduce the level of service to what can be found in Canada or
Great Britain? No, thank you!

I *like* having well-paid, competent doctors who perform their
services promptly because of the competitive environment. I *like*
having a choice of hospitals, each offering different areas of
medicine as their specialty. And I *like* having the benefit of
living in a country with the best medicine in the world. Please
*don't* screw it up because not everyone can just walk right in and
pay cash! Don't make a great system not work well for *anyone*
because it doesn't currently work for a minority today!

Please.

--Geoff

 

When people who can't get or can't afford health insurance get the
sniffles or a hangnail or the flu, they go to the emergency room because
that's the only access they have to health care. Hospitals do not turn
away ER patients because they cannot pay. As a result, all of us pay, and
we pay a whole hell of a lot more than if there were some comprehensive
system to take care of these people.

And even the best and poorest of us bleed when cut.

You seem to be confusing me with someone who thinks the US should have
nationalized health care.

You seem to know nothing about the level of service in Canada. In Canada,
most people with most ailments get the treatment they need quickly and
efficiently and with great competence. (How do I know? Well, I've lived
here for the past few years. How do *you* know? Sumpin' you heard on Rush
Limbaugh?)

There is no lack of choice in doctors and hospitals in Canada. The notion
that Canadians don't get to choose their doctors or their hospitals is a
fabricated myth.

HMO's are "great"? Horseshit. If you want to talk about lack of choice in
doctors and hospitals, HMOs are what we're going to discuss.

 

I don't know what the answer is for health care in the US but the current
system is broken. 5 years ago a study indicated that 100k people are being
killed every year by hospital mistakes. Hospitals promised to improve. The
results? A revised study now says the number is closer to 200k per year
being killed by hospital errors. Clearly the current "competitive"
environment for hospitals is not leading to good health care. If you need a
cite, check your last Sunday newspaper. Numbers were in People's Pharmacy
which is syndicated in most major newspapers.

 

Mike you must enjoy being wrong all the time.

http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/48483/article.html

"General Motors has been consistently losing market share since the early
1970s. While nearly one in every two domestic vehicle sales used to fall
under the GM umbrella, the company's share now hovers around 27 percent
(including fleet sales), with substantial erosion occurring in the last five
years"

 

What is your point, clearly you are mistaken once again.
What you were implying when you said in your original post "Seems
to me when highly paid GM management manages to go from 50%
market share to 28% market share in a couple of decades, there is
something wrong with the executive compensation system." GM is
selling MORE vehicles not fewer. The fact they are doing so
against vastly superior numbers of manufactures with whom they
must compete today, disputes you mistaken opinion. Obviously you
haven't done the math. The fact is, even though GM's market
share has dropped to 28% of the market compared to 50% of the
smaller market at one time, that the executives of GM
are in fact apparently earning whatever remuneration they
receive.


mike hunt

 

If you have a problem with your HMO, you have the wrong HMO. I
have been covered by an HMO for nearly twenty years. There are
page after page of doctors, both GP's specialist, hospitals and
pharmacies where I can go for treatment or medications. There
are no lifetime limits
or high deductibles, $10 for a GP, $25 for a specialist. I have
never had a problem obtaining the superior services offered by my
HMO and the fee is less than for lower, less comprehensive
coverage, offered under Medicare or my previous BC/BS coverage.


mike hunt

 

Yep. And when a lot of those same people with hangnails need a ride to
get to the ER, they call 911. There's another flagrant abuse. Do we need a
'comprehensive system' to cover taxicab service too, Dan?

I'd like to know what you're calling your 'comprehensive system' if
socialized medicine (a.k.a. nationalized health care) isn't the correct
term.

You like punitive taxation for little in return, eh? Or is it maybe the
100 km/h national speed limit that was the big attraction?

Perhaps it was the climate!



How do *you* know? Sumpin' you heard on Rush

Actually, no. My source of information on the state of Canadian health
care is from my Canadian co-workers who commute here from Windsor. And
the truth is, they all carry U.S. health insurance at extra cost to
themselves, because when they really need care they want to come *here*.

Anecdotal, I know. So is your assertion that 'most people with most
ailments' blah, blah blah. In addition, I'll see your 'most people with
most ailments' and raise you to 'most people with *all* ailments' --
which is the situation in the US.

And Canada's isn't a particularly bad socialized system. From my
co-workers in Great Britian, I hear that the situation is truly dire.
Emergency room queues that can last for days. (DAS care to comment?)

Maybe in Greater Toronto this is true. I occasionally listen to
*Canadian* talk radio (you know, during the hours that Limbaugh isn't
on here in the US) and hear the locals out in Canadian farm country
bitch about how poor the health care is in southwest Ontario. I'm sure
its worse in the other provinces, I just don't pick them up on my car
radio.

Y'know Dan, Canada is just a few miles away. It's not hard for somebody
in Detroit to know what the score is across the river. All I have to do is
flip around the tuner and pay attention to what's going on.

You, on the other hand. are living in the single richest town in Canada,
the one that Canadians all bitch about getting the lions share of the
tax benefit. Then you try to extrapolate your experience to that of
Canadians in general. Somehow I doubt that's close to being the case.

That being said, there are places in rural America where you don't have
as many choices as we do here. That's one _big_ reason why I won't
live in 'em.

There's a parallel health care system in America provided for our
military veterans. My father-in-law is stuck with that beast of a
system. I'm sure most anyone subject to the VA system would agree that
*government run* system sucks ass. Who in their right mind would want
to turn over more of our health care to the government after seeing its
performance in the VA system?

I don't have an HMO. I've got PPO coverage. And it's just
fine, thank you. I go anywhere I want to *in the world* and it's
covered. And for the price of selecting a doctor that participates
'in-network' -- and it's a big network -- I go for just a minor
deductible in addition to my monthly premiums. Paying for medical care
just is *not* a concern for me.

I've had a choice of cheaper HMO-style coverage. I turned it down,
knowing full well that you get what you pay for. So my paychecks are a little smaller than my HMO-choosing co-workers.

So what? Me, my wife and two kids are covered by the best damn medical
system anywhere in the world. I'm willing to pay for that. Why isn't anyone else?

It all comes down to choices and priorities. If your priorities are
such that taking care of your health and that of your family isn't
paramount, then I guess you will eventually have reason to bitch about
the cost of health care in America. Too friggin' bad.

What I truly dislike is the idea that because *my* priorities are such
that health care IS paramount that I'm accused of being somehow less
than compassionate when others who made poor choices complain and I turn
a deaf ear. Natural selection at work, IMO.

Funny, there's a pattern here. I buy and pay for medical insurance the
same way I buy and pay for automobile insurance. My risks are managed!

So what's the problem?

--Geoff

 

Wow. I would like to have those things to but who among us still
does? My insurance demands that I go to a primary care Dr. and I have
to convince him there is a problem before I am allowed to go to
another Dr. I'm only allowed to go to one hospital chain even though
there are several that are better. And I'm one of the fortuante ones
(right now)!

My out of pocket expenses have gone from $50 per hospital visit to
$2000 per visit. No more prescription drugs coverage and the cost
have almost doubled. It's not my employer... they provide the info on
what health care was costing and what it would cost to maintain the
same level of service along with a note apologizing and explaining
that they just can't afford to maintain the previous coverage levels.

What about those who can't afford insurance? What about those that
have to choose between drugs and food? What about the unemployed whos
family COBRA coverage cost them half a months unemployment check?

And why is it that the government can't afford to help the working
poor in this country with health care but they will happily pay
thousands per month for facilities full of drooling babbling shells
that used to be people?

I don't know what the answer is but I'm willing to give socialized
medicine a try. If healthcare continues on its current path I can't
see myself having insurance in another couple of years and that scares
me to no end,.

Steve B.

 

There are plenty of countries around with socialized systems for you to
assess without making an irreversible change here only to find that
there are worse systems. Rather than risk ruining what admittedly is
less than an ideal system, try one that has already made the change to
socialism to see how you like it. That would be better than destroying
what we have only to discover that there are much worse systems. Once
the change is made, there is never any going back because, as a society,
the climb out of the hole is too great once you fall into it (kind of
like an addict who can't live with the drugs and can't live without
them).

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Just my $0.02
Most CDN's have a choice of MD's & in emergencies they tend to have
the service they need. (not the best but "usually" good enough)

Why am I in favor of a BASIC level of universal health care? I'll
provide an example and you tell me what you think is the right answer:

A "poor" person with drug resistant TB stands in the DMV office
coughing next to your wife and young child. Do you care? Your
teenager goes out on a group date with some school friends. One of
whom cannot afford full treatment for their syphilis which is now drug
resistant because they only get ER care. Do you care yet?

There's being selfish, and then there's being "penny wise & pound
foolish". I think you can surmise which category I put people in who
cannot see the need for basic universal health care. Polio wasn't
wiped out by only vaccinating those that could afford the vaccine.

 

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:40:24 -0400, Geoff

I agree with a bit of what written in this portion

Not if you've got BUPA ( British Private health insurance) It allows
for the 2 tier system to operate efficiently. Worked wonders for my
In-laws to que jump when they needed to.

Here in Canada when we want quicker / more personal service we've got
to travel to the US.

Any one that's truly happy with the CDN system either does that, or
has been brainwashed into believing the propaganda that the
politicians and health unions spread. (And yes that would be the same
politicians who fly to the states for same day MRI scans etc)

I like the private choice of the US system. Though I do believe that
a health "floor" should be provided for. i.e. ER & communicable
conditions

I also agree with portions of the lower section

 

I think that some people's argument will be that it is impossible to
"reduce the service level" for people with no service to begin with.

You've gotta get the Mrs working for either a Gov't agency or a
pharaceutical company. Their plans are the world health care dream.
My Brother in law pays $200.00 per month for a family of 6, MD's? his
choice, MRI's? no more than 5 hours wait and no additional, drug
coverage? 100% This is the Healthcare that everyone wants to have.

But then again he's got his post grad & hasn't been unemployed or
sick.

What is a better question is why they spend tens of thousands locking
up idiots who sell dope to each other. Out on the streets they could
never afford health or dental care, but in the pen? You're paying for
it ! Plus the cost of prison runs somewhere between $15 & $40 K per
year per person. I know, not really all that much, but when you
look at the levels of the US incarceration it begins to add up.

The best thing you can do for your health in the interim is:
A) wear your seatbelt.
B) Keep your weight within the ideal range

BUT most importantly.

C) Have a strong social network. (that way if you do lose insurance
you'll have people to pressure those in power to guarantee your care).

For a thought, have you tried to join an automotive newsgroup? ;-)

PS the last one wasn't to play down the significance of what you wrote
(it is usually an important election issue) but to try to bring a
smile. Stress will make you ill.

Here's something from alt.jokes for everyone's weekday smile:

A car company can move its factories to Mexico and claim it's a free
market.
A toy company can outsource to a Chinese subcontractor and claim it's
a free market.
A major bank can incorporate in Bermuda to avoid taxes and claim it's
a free market.
We can buy HP Printers made in Mexico.
We can buy shirts made in Bangladesh.
We can purchase almost anything we want from many different countriesheaven help the elderly who dare to buy their prescription drugs from
a Canadian (Or Mexico) pharmacy. That's called un-American!

And you think the pharmaceutical companies don't have a powerful
lobby? Think again!

************************************************************************
Have a great week everybody, Get out & enjoy your car !
************************************************************************

 

Just some recent news to consider when comparing CDN socialized health care
to the US system.

--Geoff

Canadian Physiotherapy Association Calls for Access to Needed Health Care
May 23, 2004
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/May2004/23/c6833.html
"Ontario's recent decision to delist community-based physiotherapy from
OHIP is merely the latest action in a troubling trend towards reduced access
to needed physiotherapy services across Canada."


Alberta Premier Ralph Klein to roll out details of health-care reform plan
Jun. 29, 2004
http://www.medbroadcast.com/health_news_details.asp?news_id=4305&news_channel_id=1015
"Klein, long known for pushing more private care options as a way to rescue
a public system collapsing under its costs, ratcheted up the rhetoric
recently when he suggested Alberta's changes to health delivery in Alberta
may violate the Canada Health Act.
....
"Our focus is entirely on strengthening the public system at a time when
substantial underfunding by the Ottawa Liberals over the past several years
has put health systems from coast to coast into perilous situations," he
said.


http://www.mercerhr.com/knowledgecenter/reportsummary.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1138545
"On 18 May 2004, Greg Sorbara, the Ontario Minister of Finance, tabled his
government's first budget. The budget focused on health care and education.
As widely anticipated, the government introduced a so-called premium which
will be administered as a personal income tax. This additional tax is
referred to as the Ontario Health Premium" ("OHP"). In addition, certain
services currently covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan ("OHIP"),
such as chiropractic services and routine optometry examinations, will be
delisted. Many of the changes introduced under the budget will have an
impact on employers.

 

I think you'll find that the US's 'medical record', such as infant
mortality, isn't as good as you think it is, despite all that (private)
spending


DAS

 

I feel much better already...
So it's not only in the UK where people die because of hospitals'
mistakes...

DAS

 

Declining market share suggests an overall erosion of competitiveness. It's
not great performance to have a relatively small increase in numbers when
the market has grown hugely.

If GM were still so great they'd have a much higher market share.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
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