Looking for a mid-size domestic car recommendation

How much oil smoke do they blow out the tailpipe? Seems I can't pass
a Lincoln Town Car, GM or CV and NOT see a cloud of blue smoke behind
it, except for the police version of the CV...

 

What !? Canada isn't part of the US????

Damn !

So that explains our crippling taxes and pathethic government.

 

Only way to really know if it is truly German is to try and sell one.

If it maintains more than 50% of it's purchase price in the first year
you're probably not driving your fathers Chrysler.

 

Of course the executives are not shareholders. They don't mind the
income, but they sure aren't tying their futures to the companies.

 

Are you sure the smoke isn't from a Chrysler mini van in
front of the CV? Since 1992 members of my family have owned
5 Ford modular V-8s. Not one has blown blue smoke out the
tailpipe - including ones that had over 147,000 miles. I
occasionally see CV taxi cabs in my area that emit a little
smoke at times, but around here the taxi cabs are all
ex-highway patrol or city police vechiles purchased from the
NC State Surplus Property auction. Mostly they start out
their life as taxi cabs with 75,000 to 100,000 miles and go
from their.

Ed

 

They put them on the floor. I am 6'3" and I never have any
trouble riding in the back of my Mom's Grand Marquis.

Ed

 

Versus a high percentage lining the pockets of fat cats in
Michigan?

Ed

 

You got a problem with that?

--Geoff

 

And I though that there was a country which was Southern Ontario + USA, and
then there was Canada...

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
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[.......]

.......................

 

Interesting about Chrysler, but Daimler-Benz never had significant executive
shareholders, AFAIK. The biggest single 'private' shareholder is the
Kuwaiti govt, via its investment vehicle.

DAS

 

Many international companies maintain R & D and design studios in several
countries, not just in their HQ building.

Some of you just have to get over the fact that international companies are
international... in Britain this process took place many years ago with the
demise of British Leyland, before which a high percentage of cars sold in
Britain were 'domestic'. Anyway, how 'foreign' are Ford and GM in Britain,
both whom have maintained production etc here for decades?

DAS

 

Yes. For instance:

"Wagoner's total 2002 compensation package reached $14.7
million in 2002, compared with $7.43 million in 2001, when
the company failed to achieve financial targets, according
to the company's proxy released Thursday."

Do you really think the guy running GM is worth $14.7
million dollars? I don't.

Ed

 

I don't think it's any of my damn business what he or anyone else earns
in their paycheck. His salary is the result of a deal struck between
that Wagoner and his employer, and he was well-served to negotiate the best deal
for himself that he could, whether you or I or anyone else thinks that he's
'worth' that or not. Obviously, if the board of directors thought he was
overpaid, they'd cut his salary. If they were somehow in cahoots
together and the overly large salaries were really causing actual harm
to the company, the stock price would plummet as the company failed to
perform. These things have not happened, so I think it is fair to
conclude that Mr. Wagoner has struck a fair deal for himself with
General Motors, which in case you didn't know, is currently the largest
automobile manufacturer *in the world*. Would I want fourteen million
dollars to live with the headache of running and being made accountable for an
operation that large? You're goddamned right I would, and I think I would
deserve it. Half of the freaking State of Michigan is relying upon that
man to make good decisions and keep the General Motors empire -- with finances
larger than many individual countries -- rolling along making a profit.
*My* income depends, in part, on his making good decisions.

Do you mean to tell me that GM shouldn't reward an individual for an
effort of that magnitude?

Do you mean to tell me that GM shouldn't try to attract the best and the
brightest among us to positions that have that sort of responsibility?

Do you mean to tell me that GM should place that sort of responsibility
in the hands of somebody who's willing to do the job cheap?

Do you mean to tell me that somehow *your own* contribution to society
at large is commensurate with his, and therefore he is not deserving of
his salary because *you* do not make as much?

What I would like to know is who nominated you as being the arbiter of who
should get paid and how much? I would also like to know how your
system of values has gotten so completely f**ked over that you think
that the people who *make it possible* for half of an entire state to
have good employment, homes over their heads, food in their mouths and
educations for their children shouldn't get paid more than X dollars,
regardless of what X happens to be. Are the people of the State of
Michigan unimportant to you, because they happen to be distant from
where you are? Is America's industrial economy something that is to be
subject to the snivelling whims of people such as yourself who think
that the fat cat CEOs are overpaid and 'there outta be a law?'! Do you
think the shareholders of GM are so stupid they are willing to let Mr.
Wagoner rip them off?

Thankfully, folks such as you *aren't* running the country. I can only
hope that this condition persists in November.

I'll tell you one more thing while I'm at it: I don't make $14 million
dollars a year. You probably don't make $14 million dollars a year
either. Want to know why? Because neither one of us has the talent,
drive, skill, experience, willingness and commitment that Mr. Wagoner
manifests in his daily life. That's why he is WORTH $14 million a year,
and you and I aren't. Period. I'm happy with what I earn. I would
suggest that if you aren't happy with you earn, that you do something
about it, and quit complaining about those who have risen to the top.
That won't get you anywhere, and it sure as hell doesn't help anyone
else either.


--Geoff

 

If the world was a fair place, I wouldn't care what
executives make. However, most large corporations are run
like the '60 era Soviet Union. The Board of Directors are
members of an exclusive club and they slap each other on the
back while running their corporate empires for their
personal benefit. Sometimes, a few crumbs reach the average
investor, but that is usually a mistakle that is rectified
in the next quarter. Board of Directories routinely reward
incompetence with huge raises and sweet heart stock deals.
They are little more than reverse Robin Hood Gangs - steal
from the poor and give to the rich. If stock holders
exercised any real control, then I could live with it. But
for the most part, small investors are just gambling when
they invest in the stock market. The big players (banks,
mutuals, etc.) are all part of the big Casino that people
think is a stock market. They make sure they (the BIG boys)
get theirs and they don't give a d%^m about the little guy,
except to have him feed more money into their coffers so
that they can live like a Sultan. Having kept a job during
the reign (and I do mean reign) of one of the greatest flim
flam artist of the 20th century, I can tell you that the
picture from the bottom of the food chain is a lot different
than the one portrayed in the media. When you aren't allowed
to buy pencils for a month, because the company must make
arbitrary 3rd quarter numbers, or some other such nonsense,
you know the people running the company are insane, or that
they are cooking the books to make themselves look good.

Ed

 

Thanks! Just to clarify, I don’t care too much if it is domestic. I
really like the simplicity, and seat arrangment of Dynasty (I can
easily pack 6-7 people in there).

 

You must be satisfied with the performance of your Enron stock too.

 

Are you talking about this car -
http://www.allpar.com/model/dynasty.html ?

As best I can tell the Dynasty has the folowing specs:

Wheelbase, in. 104.5
Overall Length, in. 193.6
Overall Width, in. 68.9
Overall Height, in. 53.6
Curb Weight, lbs. 3276
Cargo Volume, cu. ft. 16.5
Seating Capacity 6
Front Head Room, in. 38.3
Max. Front Leg Room, in. 41.9
Rear Head Room, in. 37.8
Min. Rear Leg Room, in. 38.9

This is roughly the size of a Ddge Stratus, Chevy Malibu,
Honda Accord, or Toyota Camry. The biggest problem you are
going to have is matching the 6 passenger seating. Most cars
that are similar in size only offer 5 passenger seating,
even though most actually offer more seating room that the
Dynasty. The Ford Taurus is larger than your Dynasty, and it
does offer 6 passenger seating as an option. The Toyota
Avalon and Ford Crown Victoria also offers 6 passemger
seating as an option. But that's about it. Everything else
with 6 passenger seating is larger and more expensive. And
in many case, even the larger more expensive cars, like the
Chrysler 300, don't offer 6 passenger seating.

Ed

 

That's easy, Art: I don't own any stock. I don't gamble in the stock
market, other than the small amount of mutual fund gambling I do by virtue of
the fact that I have a (minimally contributed to) company 401K. I sleep
better at night than I would otherwise. Yet despite all the 'wisdom'
of the 'financial experts' that would indicate otherwise, I seem to be
enjoying a happy and fulfilling life, and probably will be for many,
many decades to come. You, on the other hand, seem to be whining about
every little thing at the least opportunity. See how strange this is?

If your participation in the stock market is causing
you to make ridiculous assertions like we've seen here about how unfair
it all is that some people make more money than others, perhaps you
might want to get out of it, too.

Clearly, if you've got enough skin in the stock market game to fret
about how much other people get paid, you're in far, far too deep.
Maybe there should be a "stock holder's anonymous' similar to the various
gambler's anonymous groups out there.

I've been thinking you need some professional help for quite
awhile now, Art. Maybe this is just the sort of thing you need.

--Geoff

 

Here's a big, time-saving hint, Ed: Life ain't fair. It isn't supposed
to be. Get over it.


However, most large corporations are run

Oh, geeze. Here we go with the class envy.

Yep, that's why GM is in business: to rip off the little guy.

Silly me, I thought they built vehicles and provided financing.


If stock holders

Well, duh! Did you just figure this out? Of *course* it's gambling,
*who* told you otherwise? Some MBA?


The big players (banks,

Guess what, Ed: everyone tries to cast their job performance in the best
possible light. That is simple human nature. If you really expect
otherwise, you're badly misinformed.

As far as living like a Sultan is concerned: I've got *no* argument with
anybody who has the means to live in the manner they so choose. They
don't bother me, and I'm quite sure I don't bother them. Most
contribute *far* more than their fair share to society through their
efforts and taxes, and dammit, I'm not going to be the one to try and
take their chosen lifestyle away from them. I may not always agree with
how they live, and I may not want to be like them, but does it hurt me
that they do so? Absolutely not. I just hope they buy enough cars and
computers to make for a persistent, positive upswing in the parts of the
economy that concern me, and as for the rest, that's between them and
their maker (if any.)

--Geoff

 

Mike Levy wrote:

The Ford Modular is a pretty marginal engine design with about 1001 weak
spots and band-aids applied to it over the past 10 years to make it
serviceable (yes, I was a fan of the Windsor smallblocks). BUT I will
say that the last 5 years or so have been pretty solid, especially the
4.6 version. The early ones did tend to spew blue (cylinder sealing
issues) but that seems to be pretty well in hand now. After all, the
engine in the police CV is the same as all the rest except for the dual
exhaust.

GMs are OK if you get the Buick 3800 engine. The Chevy 3400 v6 and
(heaven forbid) the "Ecotec" 4 are both execrable little junkers. And
even then, some model years of the 3800 also tended to mix their oil and
water all to eagerly (bad intake gasket design).

I'd pick a 3.5L-powered Chrysler (Intrepid, Concorde, Vision, 300, LHS)
in a heartbeat. Avoid the 2.7L v6.