labor charge-by the hour or book???

But what if mechanic A can do the job in 3 hours, mechanic B can do it
in 4 hours, and the book says 6 hours? This is more like MY experience
of flat rate pricing. Fortunately I now go to a shop that doesn't do
book pricing.

Lisa

 

Jim wrote:

The last one on my GM isn't THAT bad - but it took an extra minute.
The real trick, though, was to be *gentle* as stripping out a plug
is really bad.

I don't let the morons do such work on my cars - the problem isn't
just removal, but over-torquing everything they can get their
hands on.

I make sure the guy at the tire store uses a torque wrench. Even
if it's a bit off, it's not the 100lbs+ that a full bore air powered
tool can deliver.

It takes a LOT of force to warp a rotor. As in - some bonehead
really jammed in on as hard as they could.

Lol. I find that the spark plug wires usually self-destruct every
other change(live in a high smog area), so 6 plugs and a set of wires...
$32 last time I did it. The neat thing was the 20 cent higher plugs
I bought that had pre-set gaps. I verified them as correct. Nice
touch.

The corners those techs cut are amazing, but nothing like auto
body shops. You know, it's perfectly possible to repair a car
without Bondo or sanding down a perfectly good panel to re-spray
your cheap non-factory crap paint to get a good "blend".

I've seen pros shoot the paint right the first time and blend the
panel itself - no sanding of good paint required.

The last accident I had(people keep running into me - go fig)
I had to make a stink to have them strip and spray primer on the
back side of the used fender(insurance company wouldn't let me
PAY the difference for a new factory part - since dropped).
Turned out to cost the company $40 more than a primed factory
panel.

*boggle*

So cheap that they thought they could cut a few
corners and I'd not notice. Did good work, though,
but I'll stick with the other shop I usually go to.

 

i sure would like to know where you got that info?
there is a few like your parents but the most under warranty cars do go in and
get looked at when the owners think it's covered
the minute it's not then they let it go, then when they are stranded and it's
costs a small fortune to fix and they are pissed off and of course it's the car
makers fault for making such a p.o.s! then the tillwe syndrome starts!
wasn't like that (till we) worked on that even though it has not been serviced
in 70 k
come spend a daty with any dealer tech and find out the real truth



t

 

Your loss when you end up with a REAL problem.
Sometimes ya win, sometimes ya lose!!

 

Before I comment, do you have some examples of this?.. The
assumptions I'd be making would be that the job is done correctly and
that 'the book' is one of the industry accepted ones.. I'm not going
to comment on something like 'Tune Up $39.95 - most cars' as seen at
one of the local chains..

Poke around some at www.flatratetech.com see what techs are saying.

Regards,

Jim

 

<snip>

Ahh.. GM.. inventors of the transverse V6 'to change the 3 rear bank
spark plugs, unbolt the doglegs and **tilt** the motor over'.

I still remember when that came out.. thankfully, after the first
year GM started including a 'hold hole' in the one dogleg so you could
slide the dogleg bolt back through the bracket and into the 'hold
hole' to keep the motor tilted while you reached back there and
changed the plugs by feel.

Memories...

Regards,

Jim

 

H'm. A labor union's site. Probably does not pass the "fair and balanced"
test.

DS

 

Heh. I have a *very* short plug socket for this job. The normal one
doesn't fit.

 

I've been going to this place for years. As a regular poster here
pointed out to me in email, it's entirely possible that they've got
common job times from the book memorized, and are in reality charging
book rate. I don't know. This place has been cheaper than other places
on the same jobs, although on different cars. They've never steered me
wrong. When my alternator started making a whine, they initially
thought it was, I think, the idler pulley or something like that. When
it turned out not to be, they removed the new part, put the still good
old part back on, and charged me nothing. They often do little fixes or
adjustments for no charge.

They may treat me well because they know that they get all the auto work
for all of our cars.

Lisa

 

I do remember a specific instance, around 10 years ago. I knew how long
the job took because I was waiting for the car at the shop the whole
time. The time the job took was around 2/3 of the book time. The
service manager told me that most experienced mechanics can finish most
jobs in less than the book time. Maybe he was lying, maybe not.

If I can find time, I'll take a look.

Lisa

 

I suspect they are charging like I did - "tempered flat rate" - in
other words, the book is their guide, and they do not punch a timecard
for every job.

I got into trouble with my dealer principal for not making workorders
and charging out for minor fixes.
Fifteen years ago it cost $25 to process a work order. That covers the
cost of the paper, the time to fill it out, the time to process, file,
and analyze the data.
Unless I was going to charge $30 I was farther ahead to not charge
anything.

Being a loyal customer USED to mean something. In today's world, I'm
not sure any more.

 

Well, if the average mechanic takes book time, thewre must be some
that take longer, and some that take less. Depends how many good
mechanics there are, and how many ess than good in the sample.

If the Median is used instead of the average, it does not matter how
many are better than book, and how many are poorer - as the book would
be half way between the "good" mechanic's time and the "less good".

In my experience, a good menchanic should consistently beat the book
by about 20%, assuming he does not clean up the bay and polish his
tools in that "job time".
A mechanic who has done the procedure in question many times - to the
point he knows exactly which tools he needs for which bolts, exactly
where the bolts are, what order of removal is most efficient, and just
exactly how to hold his mouth and how loud to grunt, may very well
beat the clock by a good 50% on some jobs.

An example from many years back.
I cannot remember the book time, but in 1971 Toyota had problems with
cracked heads on the2T engine in the corolla. I worked as a mechanic
at a Toyota dealer at the time - had roughly 2 years under my belt as
a licenced mechanic.
We ordered the heads in, and booked about 15 or 20 cars for
replacement.
I'd pull one car in, pull the head, and send it to the machine shop to
have the valves switched, then pull in the next one - etc. I could
line up 4 cars in a row through the shop. By the time I got #4
stripped, head #1 was back - and I would install it, drive the car
out, push the rest forward and tear down #5.

I averaged less than an hour each after the 3rd or 4th job.
Had I been on flat rate, I'd have done real well, as the book time was
well over 3 hours. (and the first one took every minute of book time,
plus.

 

They may be doing exactly that. One of the two boss guys said once he's
been working on cars for 3 years, and I can vouch for him not being a
stupid man. The other boss guys is much younger, but he probably learns
a lot from the older guy.

Sounds like he was penny wise and pound foolish to me, but I'm in no way
an expert in this area.

Overall, I too am unsure. In specific instances, it CAN mean
something. I've noticed that since I pointed out to my guys that they
do get all the work for all the cars, my repairs seem to be completed a
bit more quickly, and when I pull in, they take a look right now, not
later. Then again, I also give the shop a big jar of candy to share
every Christmas. Loyalty may not buy much today, but bribery, er, I
mean incentives, still work

Lisa

 

We charge according 'to the book'. Actually, we use ALLDATA. As I
see
Seriously, I don't understand the level of debate on this topic.

You have a job, X. At the first shop, that job X is done for price A. At
the second shop, price B. At the third, price C.

You are free to negotiate with the shop on the price of the job. You may
find one that will negotiate, you may not.

You are free to decide to not have the work done, or to tackle it yourself.

How they arrive at their asking price is really none of your business.
Period. The fact you're aware of something called a 'time-labor study' or
that there are books published with standard labor hours to complete a job
is absolutely immaterial. What counts is what you agree to pay.

It is assumed that you will comparison shop the job between shops, and find
the one that combines the most favorable price with any other factor you
deem important. I.E. Shop A can do the job for $100, but it will take a
week. Shop B will do the job for $125, but it will be ready tomorrow. Shop
C might offer to drop everything and have you back on the road in an hour,
but charge $200.

It's your choice. Whichever one of those price-to-perceived-value ratios
suits you best, you can go right ahead and decide for yourself.


If you agree to a price, have the work performed, and then pay the
agreed-upon price, the deal is done. Anything else is simple buyer's
remorse. You should ignore your impulse to follow through on buyer's
remorse and try to renegotiate after the fact, lest you give the impression
you want to renege on the deal.

Further, if you agree on a price, and it's a not-insignificant sum of money,
and you *don't negotiate* beforehand, either because you're too chickenshit
or ill-informed to do so *it's your own damn fault*.

Don't whine here.

--Geoff

 

What the heck happened?..


Clickity clickity..

Ok.. here's some more info..

"Ford Dealers Caught in the Crossfire

Ford dealers are caught in the middle of a dispute between their
technicians and Ford Motor Co.

Ford technicians are angry about labor time rates that Ford cut in
1997 and 1998. Ford pays dealers and technicians a flat rate for
warranty repairs. Technicians say that Ford, in setting unrealistic
labor times, is taking money out of their pockets.

Technicians Mark Ward, Jeff Colgrave, Dan Young and Dick Ward sprang
into action, using the Internet to voice their frustration and
generate interest among fellow technicians.

They've had little success in effecting change with either the dealers
or the auto maker.

In 2003, the four began planning a lawsuit against Ford. But without
proper resources, the group looked for help.

They met with the International Assn. of Machinists and Aerospace
Workers (IAM) leadership in the fall. A deal was cut. The technicians,
using their website, would provide leads and assist in organizing
service departments for the union. In return, IAM handles the
logistics of the prospective lawsuit."

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0FJN/2_38/112683604/p2/article.jhtml?term=

That explains it.. this used to not be a union backed website..

Sorry about that.. the point I was attempting to get across was that
even dealer techs aren't happy with some flat rate times.. but because
it's not enough time to do the job.

regards,

Jim

 

you are right!
when it comes to warranty the times suc and as a tech you lose money
and the new car owner gets pissed off because the car does not get fixed esp. when it come to squeaks and rattles since they don't
apy us enough to fix them correctly esp. d.c and ford i don' want to work for free do you??
now c.p is were the i win i can beat the times and then go to the next job meaning you are paying more than you really should for
car repairs but that how the system works WHO WINS??? the dealer and the shop owner who pays flat rate the loser the CUSTOMER!

 

The Boss guys have only been working on cars for 3 years? They are
just young pups? Or have they worked on trucks or airplanes or
something for a few years?
Some young guys have a lot of ambition, and after 3 years they have
not yet become "jaded" by the business.
I left the business after about 20, and my kid brother has been in it
for 30 now - and is about ready to get out. Owns his own shop and is
looking for a buyer.

That's what I told him. In the ten years I was service manager the
service department made a millionaire out of him.

And unlike Maxi, you don't tear a strio pff of them, up one side and
down the other. Honey catches more flies than vinegar!!

 

Yet another Wal-Mart-esque example of Ford sticking it to their
employees and distributors.

 

If you agree to a price, have the work performed, and then pay the

I wish life was that simple... one thing I try to do with the people
I work with is have them think about what they are doing and ask
themselves how they would defend it in a court of law..

I've had customers buy a car from an individual; the seller tells the
customer that the engine, transmission and mechanical fuel injection
have all been rebuilt. Of course, the seller doesn't have any receipts
for any of the work.

The customer brings the car to the shop for us to fix what the seller
calls 'a simple problem'. Simple problem turns into nightmare for
customer.. seems that engine, transmission and mechanical fuel
injection have NOT been rebuilt; at least not to the standards that
either us or the factory would consider rebuilt. One example is a cam
chain gear that has worn out teeth.. rather than replace the gear, the
butcher who was in there last just flipped the gear over so the chain
rode on the other side.

Long story short, when the car was done the customer paid with a
check that he had already stopped payment on.. before he gave us the
check.

We took him to court and was awarded the full amount of repairs
(which is rare).. The judge told the customer that 'it sounds like you
got a bad deal from the seller'..

In my experience, in this business you've got to be extremely
concerned about what you're charging.. I wouldn't even consider
mentioning to a customer who came in at 5pm 'on the hook' (towed in)
that we could stay late and fix their car, but it would cost extra.
The cries of 'price gouging' are deafening..

Regards,

Jim

 

And few mechanics (or Service Technicians as they like to be called these
days), spend what a lawyer, plumber or other professional does on education,
training and licensing! If he quotes you 2.5 hours labor at $xx.xx an hour
and finishes the job in 1 hour then he should charge you ONE hour. Doing
other wise would make him a crook by any definition. If he wishes a higher
price on a particular job then he should quote a 'Job' fee and not an hourly
rate.

By the way, $75 is about average for top notch mechanics in my area that
know what they are doing and stand behind their work.