Intrepid wheel alignment - done right?

Point being that the camber adjustment would be considered part of the
4-wheel alignment at the stated nominal price (whatever it is) assuming
the camming bolt is already there (and I think that is the assumption in
the vehicle info. that the shops have on LH vehicles - I am guessing,
but I believe that to be true). But if the camming bolt is not already
installed, the cost of the bolt and its installation would be extra to
the customer. Also, shifting the cradle to correct a side-to-side
caster problem would also be outside the scope of the nominal alignment,
and the customer could/should be charged extra.

So what are your ideas on why the rate book for an LH vehicle is more
than double what other vehicles are? IOW, Assuming that you have toe
and caster on the front, and toe only on the rear, and those are
adjusted like many other vehicles, why is the rate so high. I know when
a proper alignment is done on mine, it doesn't take nearly 2.6 hours.
Is it possible that the rates are artificial, if not, why would it take
2.6 hours?

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

a hey neil u don't need the camber bolt kit i bought this tool from mac which is
a small air bag that inflates between the tire and the wheel well and with the
bolts loose i can add air to the bag or remove air and holds the tire into place
while i set camber, works real good no fighting the tire and trying to do 3
things at once this also saves my customers 65 dollars for the bolt kit

Because it takes longer.
No, actually, I'm making this all up in spite of the fact that
the friggin times (warranty and customer pay) are well published
and easily available to anyone.

You should have bothered to actually read the procedure.
The knuckle bolts have to be replaced in order to adjust camber.
Oh... we did go over that previously. Pay attention Bill.

No adjustment? I believe you were a participant in a discussion
on that also. Yes adjustment. Pay attention Bill.

The factory warranty time is also proportionately higher, i.e.,
2.0 hours. Last time I checked, the factory wasn't making a
habit out of setting warranty labor times any higher than what
was necessary/what they could get away with, in fact, they tend
to cut them to the bone.
But you'd have known that if you had any actual experience other
than that obtained from your armchair.
(oh but Neil, Bill changed both speed sensors in his transaxle,
he sure sounds like an expert to me)

Gee, too bad the labor times for warranty and customer pay, labor
times established by time study, don't agree.
Since there is an overwhelming certainty that you weren't there
during the time studies, and have never even done an alignment on
an automobile, your "Because they don't take longer" doesn't mean
diddly-squat.

You should read what you write Bill, my comments were based upon
your useage of the words "I doubt."

I find that you believe that I'm "fantasizing" about you to be
self centered, naive and ignorant. So, what else is new.

Oh, now you're a medical expert? Do your qualifications in that
area come from the same place as you qualifications on things
automotive? I bet they do. Bill learned fixin' cars from Jethro
and he learned doctorin' from Granny.
Stay tuned for the 'New" Beverly Hillbillies, starring Bill
Putney as "Jed," Bill Putney as "Granny," Bill Putney as
"Jethro," Bill Putney as "Ellie May," Bill Putney as "Miss Jane,"

Wheeeeew doggies, I can't wait.

Bill, knowing how to do alignments and having in previous jobs
actually -done- alignments does not necessarily mean that I am at
the present time currently in that part of the business.
If that is too complicated for you to understand to the point
that you feel compelled to call me a liar or accuse me of being
dishonest, that's your problem, not mine.
You'd be smarter off to stop wearing your desperation on your
sleeve where everyone can see it.

They're providing what the consumer demands. Since consumers
such as yourself "doubt" that a four wheel alignment can cost or
should cost or should take as long as it does, it's the consumer
who is committing the fraud, the shop is merely attempting to
meet them somewhere in between. It's the Walmart mentality in
action, consumers are willing to settle for less quality because
they are only capable of making decisions based upon price and
the fact that most of them wouldn't know quality if it bit them
on their ass..
The shop is faced with the choice of offering 'something' or
nothing. To remain competative, something has to be cut, that is
always the case no matter what the product or service is, but it
is not the shops/stores fault, it is the consumers fault.

No Bill, there is a very big difference between a shop not
actually having performed a service versus them modifying a
service to meet customer demands.
A better analogy would be shop "A" does a lube oil and filter
using premium oil and a premium filter and the proper chassis
grease, they check the lights, they check the tires, they inspect
the drive belts, they check the brakes, they check the
transmssion and differential, versus shop "B" who does a lube,
oil and filter using bulk genaric oil and a genaric filter, they
don't do any inspection of the vehicle, just slam it back down on
the floor and drive it out.
Shop "B" makes more profit than shop "A" but neither one is
committing fraud, it's up to the consumer to determine which is
the better value.
Now we'll examine shop "A" versus shop "B" doing an alignment.
Shop "A" sets the vehicle to the optimal settings for good
handling, no pull, minimal tire wear and a centered steering
wheel, the vehicle is test driven to make certain there is no
pull from road crown and no unusual noises.
Shop "B" adjusts the setting so that they are "in spec," close
enough that the tires won't shred in the distance the customer is
going on his way home, nothing is optimized, there is no road
test so they can't even tell if the vehicle pulls or not but
every setting falls with-in the manufacturers range of acceptable.

In both analogies, both shops want to realize the same profit
margin, neither shop is committing fraud but there is an obvious
difference in the end product and more often than not, the
customer is going to choose the lesser priced, fewer sevices
performed product than the higher priced, more sevices, more
accurate product. The customer gets crap because he has forced
the quality product off the shelf.

Yeah Bill, I've seen those menu boards, every time I've gone into
McDonalds for a coffee, there they are!
I mean good lord, how many times do I have to post it in these
groups.... People-people-people, stop taking your car to
McDonalds for service work.
Who's the idiot Bill?

No Bill, the "menu" price, the MCDONALDS price.
That price. The "a Big Mac is the same price no matter where you
are, it's always the same price," price. The "always the low
price" price.
Did they have a clown on that menu board, was there an old man
there at the entry way handing out shopping carts?
Did you grab a job application?

Can't say. All I can do is relate the real labor time to perform
the service, compare it to your data and tell you that something
doesn't add up.

Why, don't you have electricity? (sorry, I didn't know)

A smart guy like you should be able to figure that out.

What were you expecting, a crying towel?
Sorry, fresh out.

Right. Every time something doesn't work out, it's because of
lazyness and fraud. It must be a terrible burden to be so
perfect.
You are -SO- laughable. In one breath you tell -me- to get
medical help, and in the next, you demonstrate the depths of your
paranoia. As I said before, you are not to be taken seriously.

Dunno, are you really that paranoid?

What have I done that's dishonest?
Please, find me just one customer that will come forward and
claim that I've ever done anything dishonest to them.
You know, honesty works both ways, I also have to be honest to
myself and that includes charging the full labor time as it is
published when I service a vehicle, since that is at odds with
what you believe, that makes -you- the dishonest one.
So yes Bill, your mechanics -are- dishonest, they're dishonest
because they sell themselves short depriving those who depend on
them for support (wives, children) to provide for them in the
best manner possible.

Bill, the factory warranty labor time for a four wheel alignment
on a second generation LH car is 2.0 hours, that makes 2.6 labor
hours for customer pay very much in line and correct.
The factory has NEVER been known to be anywhere near generous
with their published labor times, NEVER. Warranty labor times
are strictly based upon the actual hands on working on the car
time, they fall well short when it comes to the actual time it
takes to do a job. They do not account for the time it takes to
procure the tools needed, they do not account for any test drive
time, they do not account for machine set up time, they do not
account for the time it takes to look up specifications and/or
TSBs. IOWs, if you need to take a whiz, you better hold it until
quitting time.
IOWs, you are so clueless, you make me laugh.

I have no choice because that happens to be the part of your body
where your brain is located.

Wasn't -my- sister, must have been yours.[/QUOTE]

 

Thanks Darryl.

Uh... I think our Mac dealer either quit or starved to death,
haven't seen him in months.

 

I work in the electrical testing industry. We test electrical equipment such
as transformers, circuit breakers, and disconnecting equipment, among other
things. In our business, the equipment is worth at least hundreds of
thousands of dollars, but if the equipment fails, it can create losses of
more than that due to loss of production.

The posts I have been reading make me think of how we testers work.
Obviously, the customer is going to want to know how their equipment is
holding up. We give them an "As-found and As-left" report. This means that
the equipment is measured and recorded as to its manufacturers literature
before work is done. If it is out of specification, it is determined what is
needed to fix. In my business, it usually needs to be cleaned (electrical
contacts need some polishing or etc.). If the test after the work is
complete is satisfactory (close to specification), we record an "As-left"
reading. If this reading is -CLOSE- or within the limit to the limit the
manufacturer has set, work is done. More damage could be done with further
work, and our test equipment (while it is calibrated yearly) could have some
error.

There are two reasons that we give our customer a detailed report. The first
is the amount of money that can be lost if the equipment does fail after we
worked on it is very high. The second is that historical data could show
that a part is degrading. I see the logic in having an historical record of
data.

The customer is also told why we havn't put the equipment into the limits of
the manufacturers range if it wasn't done. More than often, 'knob
dicking',as we call it, is harmful. I you try to put something within it's
brand new spec it likely will result in worst results in the long run. If it
works do not tweak it.

I hope I made a case for both reasons of not wanting to put an alignment on
a car to within the specs when close enough is satisfactory. Also I think
that not providing the customer with the 'eye candy' is wrong. Telling a
customer why you did not mess with an out-of-spec setting without telling
him why you did not mess with it is only bad business. Close enough is good,
but only if you can tell why.

Ric