Intrepid wheel alignment - done right?

x-no-archive: yes

Hey guys, you've both contributed tons of great info to this group, and you
both have some valid points about alignments. Can't there be an agreement to
disagree? Comparing anybody to Lloyd is really low!

 

Oh yes I'm weally weally scared.

It sounds like you are the one that is threatened by the suggestion that
some in your precious "professional" industry are corrupt. It's just
human nature, Neil, so don't take it personally - happens in every
industry.

Oh no! Now I'm just devastated!

Fixed my problem when the "experts/professionals" didn't, didn't I.

Yes Neil. You want to keep the printouts out of the hands of the
customer. You can rationalize it all you want, but that is keeping an
otherwise knowledgeable customer in the dark.

I paid my way - in fact overpaid my way. But of course you will
continue to object to that red herring.

That isn't what happened at all. Last time I checked, $45 to $65 that I
paid is more than $19.95.

I purposefully don't respond to such coupons, but you'll probably
criticize me for that too. Proof that you assume whatever you want to
in a vain attempt to win a stupid argument. I paid full price, and have
always offered more if extra effort was required (seldom taken up on it,
but it shows good will). My goal was to fix a problem and to pay what
it took. The shops didn't see it that way - they felt they were
entitled to the full price when they did a sh***y job. But you'll
ignore that too just like you have everything else about this, or twist
it into some negative lie. Get help - you need it.

A printout of measurements on a vehicle with problems doesn't add
knowledge to help fix the problem - that's what you're saying. You're
only showing yourself to be a total - and I do mean TOTAL - fool. So my
tire wear and handling problems just magically went away. The fact that
I systematically diagnosed and fixed the problems is pure coincidence.
Yeah right.

"A print out isn't knowledge, neither is second guessing or arm-chair
quarterbacking." Like you do with your doctors? Finding out
information, asking questions, and finding out about options is not
wrong. In fact, it's stupid not too. You can call it second guessing,
arm-chair quarterbacking or any other of a bunch of clichés, but the way
you opperate with service providers is complete lunacy.

That coming from you means nothing.

Your lying only makes it worse. That has been explained over and over.
Sour grapes? I can't beleive that that would have to be explained to a
50 year old "man of the world". Sour grapes is when you lose and make
excuses that you didn't want what you really wanted but you can't admit
it (either to yourself or to others). Try reading the children's story
book on that - I think it's called "The Fox and the Grapes" - you could
learn a lot, but ya gotta start somewhere.

I actually got what I wanted - a well-handling, quiet, etc. car. That's
not sour grapes. That's pure joy.

He's probably smarter than me in that regard and has decided that it
does no good to argue with a fool.

Dictate? No. Simply excercising my options in a free market to not do
business with a shop who won't give me printouts. That's dictating?
Not really. So if you are shopping for a red widget, and the first
store you go into only has blue ones, and you go down the street to the
store that has red ones, you're dictating how someone runs their
business? Only in *your* mind would shopping for what you need and not
buying what you don't want be dictating how someone runs their
business. It's called the free market system. Write it down: f-r-e-e
m-a-r-k-e-t s-y-s-t-e-m.

No objections to Dan's post. I simply said that the situation was
apparetnly different where I am and that it was good for him that he
could trust the shop he goes to, but that I was not able to get anywhere
until I got printouts. If you haven't gotten that point the first 4 or
5 times it's been stated, you won't get it this time either.

Nah - For the 4th or 5th time, I'm getting printouts now just by paying
the full alignment price. What's so hard to understand about that? You
need to get your arteries checked again - I think they're hardening
prematurely on you. I'm 2 years older and am not having nearly the
problems you are. Once again, you are undeniably wrong. You said I
have to buy my own shop to get printouts. I didn't and I get
printouts. Nanny nanny boo boo.

In order to say that, you must not comprehend what "conflict of
interest" means. I'll type r-e-a-l s-l-o-w so you can
u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d: A poor alignment often means faster tire wear. If
the same shop that does the alignment also sells the tires, then the
incentive, other than their own personal integrity, isn't fully there to
do a really good job on the alignment. An unscrupulous shop could
intentionally make the alignments marginal so that it isn't obvious to
the customer, but that they sell more tires. Now, an aware customer may
evenutally pick up on the problem, and go elsewhere, but an unscrupulous
shop might think they will do better overall (the smarts of the
particular population of customers will determine weather the shop
really does profit more from the ill-gotten gain, but the owner may
still try it and either profit or go out of business depending...).
There - was that so h-a-r-d to u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?

"even begin to get close to getting" - nice phrasing.

Whatever.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004, Bill Putney wrote:

<snip a bunch of stuff>

Bill, regardless of where you live, I still don't believe you can't find a
competent alignment shop. I've managed to find good shops for just about
everything I've needed doing in a bunch of states and provinces, in urban,
suburban and rural settings, for cars made in the '60s, '70s, '80s and
'90s. I'm sure you can do likewise.

It sounds like a big part of the problem is a lack of communication. If
you're making a secret of the actual problem (pulls to the right, pulls to
the left, steering shimmy at 49 mph under moderate acceleration, have to
hold the wheel slightly leftward to go straight, veers under braking,
abnormal tire wear, whatever) and just asking for this service or that
service or the other specific service, you're doing yourself a great
DISservice.

No matter how good an amateur mechanic you or I are, no matter how well we
know our respective vehicles, the servicemen at a good professional shop
have seen many more of them, much more often. For that reason alone,
they're more likely to be able to home in on a problem's cause that you or
I are just guessing at. Believe me, I know how it feels to be absolutely
certain I've figured out the cause of the problem. Thing is, I also know
how much it costs to go buy the service I've decided I need, only to
discover it hasn't fixed the problem. Diagnostic time and work costs money
for an excellent reason: It's valuable!

I'm not saying you should just blindly trust any ol' service shop --
obviously, due dilligence and followup is necessary -- but whatever
problem you're trying to fix is NOT going to be confirmed solved by
numbers on a piece of paper. It's going to be confirmed solved by absence
of symptoms after the service work.

DS

 

Here's an old joke for you.

Guy's refrigerator stops working so he calls up a refrigerator repair guy.
The service guy shows up and look at the refrigerator, then takes out a
hammer and gives the compressor a good smack. The refrigerator starts
working again and the service guy hands over a bill for $100.01

The owner of the refrigerator looks at the bill and says:

"What the hell is this? All you did is tap it with a hammer!! And what
the hell is the $0.01 for?"

The service guy says:

"The penny is what I charged for hammering on the refrigerator. The
$100 is what I charge for knowing WHERE to hammer!"

Be careful there Dan. There are some situations - not many - where the
symptoms of problems are additive. You can have 2 broken things that
have symptoms which cancel each other out. And there are problems which
take a while
for symptoms to show up. For example, last week my car would not
start, the problem turned out to be a mechanical fuel pump which the
2 bolts holding the pump on had been ever so slowly unscrewing themselves
from the block over a period of probably years. Once the pump got far
enough away the cog on the cam couldn't hit the diaphram lever.

The truth is that you never really know with 100% certainty with any complex
machine if every system in it is working perfectly, even if there are no
outward signs of
trouble.

 

Labor times for alignment procedures for a 1998-2003 Chrysler
Concorde

Four wheel alignment, check................. 0.8 hours

Four wheel alignment, adjustment........2.6 hours

I don't know what else you can expect from a shop whos labor rate
is $17.30 - $25.00 an hour, or, the alignment was merely
"checked" which according to the prices your quoting would make a
lot more sense.

I'll go along with Daniel that yours is a communication problem
as evidenced by your plugging in a rant about "doctors,"
"lawyers," "accountants," "the IRS," "the price of fish food,"
"tires and alignments are a conflict of interest," etc, etc,
etc....

 

0.8 x $25 = $20, and I paid $65! What are you smoking!?

Let's see - let's call it $20/hr (probably a little on the high side
around here, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt). 2.6 hours x
$20 = $52. I paid $65. Hmmm - what're you trying to pull now, Neil.
Maybe we're supposed to add the 2.6 and the 0.8, but that would be bogus
because I know for a fact they didn't even put 2-1/2 hrs. total into it.

It's one thing to fudge words, because they aren't always exact (but you
still even manage to trip on your own feet in that category), but when
you can't even twist a single calculation of two numbers to work in your
favor, that's pretty sad.

Man - can I call them or what. You are way too predictable, Neil. I
wasn't even complaining about the nominal price of an alignment (I was
complaining elsewhere about not getting what I paid for, but not the
nominal price (assuming they delivered the service to match) - I even
offered more hoping that would inspire them to get off their butts).
Fact is, Neil, $65 is the going rate for a 4-wheel alignment around here
(actually anywhere between $50 and $65 - but I suppose that's my fault
too). They didn't spend anywhere near 2.5 hours - I guarantee you that.

Here's what I wrote that you are stupidly responding to (after you said
that I probably responded to a $19.95 coupon sale):

"That isn't what happened at all. Last time I checked, $45 to $65 that
I
paid is more than $19.95.

"I purposefully don't respond to such coupons, but you'll probably
criticize me for that too. Proof that you assume whatever you want to
in a vain attempt to win a stupid argument. I paid full price, and have
always offered more if extra effort was required (seldom taken up on it,
but it shows good will). My goal was to fix a problem and to pay what
it took. The shops didn't see it that way - they felt they were
entitled to the full price when they did a sh***y job. But you'll
ignore that too just like you have everything else about this, or twist
it into some negative lie. Get help - you need it."

You first make a wild assumption that I used a coupon for $19.95 with
absolutely no basis for such a stupid assumption. I simply said that I
paid full price, and even offered more when it was clear that extra
effort would be needed, but was refused, and then predicted that you
would turn even that against me. You know, I felt kind of bad after I
posted that maybe you have hardening of the arteries, but I really do
think you have a serious problem that ought to be checked out. At least
if that's the case, you have some excuse for your mental state.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Your math homework, obviously.

You're joking right?
You mean to tell me that the prevailing automotive shop labor
rate is < $20 an hour?
Which province of China are you referring to?

What did I trip Bill? You quoted $45-$65 for your alignment(s).
$45.00 divided by 2.6 hours equals $17.30
$65.00 divided by 2.6 hours equals $25.00
or
You paid a more normal labor rate of $60.00 per hour for an
alignment check, $60.00 X .8 hrs equals $48.00 or $80 X .8 equals
$64.00

Be sad all you want, but anyone with an education above the third
grade can see that I'm not twisting a damn thing.

Uh..no, actually you can't. I guess you don't have enough
fingers or toes to get into the -advanced- calculations.

Did you inspire them with anything resembling a realistic price,
for instance, taking the prevailing labor rate in this local
(nothing special) of $65.00 times the labor hours of 2.6 hours
equals $169.00

An insanely unrealistic price, which anyone with half a brain
would know is a teaser meant to sell ball joints, struts, tie rod
ends, etc.

There's your problem.

A figure of speech you thick skulled dolt.
Matters not whether it's $19.95 or $65.00, fact is, the pricing
is suspiciously low that you are going to get either; a half
assed job or the services of someone whos hourly worth is equal
to what is being paid at McDonalds or Subway or as is usually the
case and certainly appears to be in -this- case, both.

I don't need to assume a single thing. I have -your- numbers, I
have a labor time manual, the math is pretty basic, and since I
spend 25% of my day doing it, odds of me making a mistake are
nill.

No you didn't. You paid the going rate in an area probably
populated by cheapskates who've artificialy driven the price so
low that it's impossible to get the job done anywhere near
correctly. But you choose to live there.

How about a different approach, you being an informed consumer
and all, you merely call around and ask for a price quote or a
labor time quote for your alignment, when you get a quote that
realistically resembles the actual labor time of 2.6 hours at a
realistic labor rate of someone with actual marketable skills,
you choose them. All other low ball jobs are then considered a
waste of time and effort and you can avoid those establishments.

Shooting holes in your story is me twisting things into lies, eh?

Actually, I wasn't -that- far off. And, I didn't assume, I said
"probably." Word to big for ya?

But Bill, you ARE an informed consumer, you should have realized
something was fishy when you were being told $45-$65 to do a four
wheel alignment. I see those numbers as being $100-$120 too low.
Hell, you could have even posted it as a question here, I'd have
been happy to look up the abor time for you and help you
determine -realistically- what you could expect.

Yeah, well, at least I can do simple math.
here, try some:
65 divided by 2.6 equals?
45 divided by 2.6 equals?
65 times .8 equals?
How much dirt is in a hole that measures 2ft X 2ft X 2ft?

 

So how many people here have paid $169 or more for a four wheel
alignment on a standard road vehicle: Raise your hands.

Not many hands raised there (in fact probably not a single one), Neil.
In fact I doubt if anyone here has paid as much as $70 for a 4-wheel
alignment.

According to you, in my area, your beloved industry is charging what the
market will bear ($65 or less) for a service that they're fraudulently
calling a complete four-wheel alignment. According to you, I'm having
fraud perpetrated on me by the industry that you are defending, and
you're mad at me for that. Maybe you're right about their fraudulent
practices - that would explain a lot.

And you quoted a going labor rate of, what, $17.30 to $25.00/hr., but
when I used a number in that range ($20/hr.) for the calculations, in
your very next breath, you criticize me again for using a rate that you
yourself said is within the range of the going rate - and asked if I
live in China or something.

I called it again. You think the prices here are out of line (low), and
you actually blame me for that because I live here and didn't move away
in protest. "Yep - I'm gonna to New Jersey - quit my job and jerk my
kids out of school, pack everything up in a U-Haul because they can't do
a decent four-wheel alignment in Virginia. That'll teach 'em to try to
f*** with me."

Have a nice day, Neil.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Where did I say that that price was for a "standard road vehicle?"

Look, I'll say it real slow so (perhaps) you can understand it...
Labor time to align a second generation LH car is 2.6 hours.
$65.00 per hour for labor is close to the national average.
One can realistically expect a complete four wheel alignment to
cost $169.00, if the cost is (as you experienced) $100.00 less
than that, something is fishy.

You may be correct Bill, but I couldn't help noticing over the
years the number of posts similar to yours from owners of various
brands and models thru-out the automotive groups who have the
same complaint as yours.
As for you doubting that anyone here has paid as much as $70 for
a four wheel alignment, I'll just take that to mean that you
-would- be unwilling to pay a realistic price for such services
which makes a lot of what you've said here just so much hot air.
(I have this comical image of Bill flashing his $65 + 10% stipend
for a puh-rint-owt around town like some hillbilly millionaire)

First of all, I am not -in- the alignment industry, so your
association of ownership is indeed, very misplaced.
Second, at $100.00 below established rates, where is the fraud?
Fraud would be if you were charged $169.00 and recieved a
half-assed job. You willfully accepted the discount, you got
what you got, but what you got probably doesn't fit any known
definition of a four wheel alignment.
I suppose you'd buy a $99.00 refrigerator and expect a quality
appliance also. (course, if it's only going to sit on the front
porch, what more do ya need?)

Was I defending? I don't think so. I was trying to help you
understand why you experienced what you did. I don't like it any
more than you do, but YOU were the one who interjected your
"rant" into this discussion, so too frikin bad if you don't like
the answers I give.
Perhaps in your next rant, you could post a list of the answers
that you do want to hear, that way I'll be better informed as to
how I should answer and avoid damaging your fragile psyche.

You think I am mad at you? Silly little boy...
Whatever you do, DO NOT project -your- emotions onto me.
Besides, how could I be mad and also be laughing as hard as I
have throughout this discussion?

Right, except that you've also used that brush to paint the same
on doctors, lawyers, accountants, wives, the big bossman at the
coalmine, etc, etc....
You really aren't to be taken seriously.

No Bill, I extrapolated that labor rate from the numbers YOU gave.
IOWs, I did the math backwards to reach a conclusion WRT what you
were recieving.

Because for the life of me, I can't imagine a shop labor rate
being that low anywhere else outside of some third world
shit-hole. Is that where you live?

Well, before you leave, say hello to Jethro, Uncle Jed, Granny,
Ellie May, Gomer and Goober for me will ya?

I shall.

 

And I suppose you expected the garage to have the $25,000 alignment machine
and lift for free. Do you think there is a pad besides labor to also help
pay for the machine by the garage. Last time I checked Alignment lifts and
analyzers(yes) two seperate machines to do alignment) are not free!

 

Front-wheel "thrust-angle" alignment, Metro Detroit: about $50.
Four-wheel alignment, same place, about $90.

Having worked in the business years ago as a service writer, I can tell you
that, at least around here, the labor study manuals are only used rarely,
and usually then only by inexperienced service writers, who almost
invariably overbid the job and lose it.

I don't know what the situation is in rural Michigan, but I doubt the people
there pay more.

FWIW.

--Geoff

 

The shop where I had my car aligned charge nothing for a check and $69 if it
needed adjustment. Of course they gave me that quote when I was getting
tires at the same time. Their tire prices were competitive with everyone
else. It probaby took less than an hour to align my Toyota Avalon. Don't
see how they pay for the machine and worker at that rate. And yes I got a
nice printout and got to watch thru a picture window.

 

Labor time for a four wheel alignment on a 2000 Avalon is 1.4
hours, just about half of the specified time for a second
generation LH car.
The price you paid is quite a bit more realistic...

 

Hmmm - I wonder why it's so much higher than for other vehicles.
Measured the same way. Front toe in - two tie rod sleeves (loosen one
clamp bolt) on either side to adjust. Front camber - loosen the
knuckle-to-strut bolts on either side and adust the cam bolt, retighten
- just like on many vehicles. Front caster - no adjustment - that
shouldn't take long. Rear toe in - adjustable tie rods like most cars'
front toe in. Rear camber - no adjustment. Sounds like the rates are
bogus/meaningless, as others have indicated - certainly no justification
for the huge difference in book rates compared to other typical
vehicles.

So far I haven't seen any signs in the shops that say "We charge higher
prices for aligning LH cars because they take a lot longer to do", nor
did any shops tell me they would have to charge more for my car. You
know why that is? Because they don't take longer.

That's the going rate in this area - sorry - again not my fault. You
can't find a shop that charges more here. I didn't shop around for the
lowest bidder. Actually, as I said about 3 times previously, $65 is on
the high side. So your conclusion that I'd be unwilling to pay a higher
price is wrong, as are most of your assumptions and conclusions.

I find your fantasizing about me in any way repulsive and pathetic. As
I said before, you need mental help, and possibly medical also - perhaps
stroke or blocked carotid arteries - point your doctor in that direction
next time you see him/her.

So you were lying when you posted (direct quote from an earlier post):
"But what the hell do I know, I first started doing front end
alignments for pay in 1971" (certainly past tense, but what difference
does it make that you were in the biz or are presently - more dishonesty
on your part - "Depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"). More
intellectual dishonesty on your part.

You said yourself that you (not I) have concluded that the shops must've
been pressured into cutting the charge for a 4-wheel alignment because
of the public's ignorance of what's really involved, and therefore
charge only what they figure people will pay and cut the service
accordingly while still calling it a complete 4-wheel alignment. That
is fraudulent and deceptive. You framed the scenario in your terms -
I'm only telling you what you had just defined by your idiotic
conclusions is fraud.

Charging any price (just happens to be $50 or $65 in this case), and
calling it a complete 4-wheel alignment when, according to you, they
could not be doing a proper complete 4-wheel alignment for that price -
yes - that would be fraud. Charging whatever price for an oil and
filter change and simply wiping the dirt off the filter without changing
oil and filter is fraud. That is the equivalent of what you're claiming
the shops around here (and, according to post by others who've chimed
in, elsewhere in the country) must be doing - but that's your
conclusion, not mine. I'm just saying that if that is what's going on,
then it's fraud. Period.

Listen idiot: For the now, what, 6th time: I paid full *non-discounted*
*non-coupon* *non-advertised special* price that is posted on the shops'
boards - you know the ones that hang on the wall over the service
counter that you press the numbers into that has dust on it because it
has said that price for the last three years, yeah - that price - that
is the one I paid. The shops' full price (7th time stated). The
non-discounted/non-sale/non-special price (8th time stated). The price
that you can't find a plcae around that charges more than that - that
price (9th time stated).

Therefore, if your conclusion is correct, by definition: fraudulent.

Another one of your idiotic examples that, for one thing, doesn't apply
to me. You sure you're not Lloyd?

(snipped more b.s.)
Oh - yeah - you're just trying to help.

(more meaningless b.s. snipped)

Nice try. The common thread is that they're all human beings, and
subject to the same temptations to take the lazy way out unless some
system of auditing or checks and balances in some form or other is in
place. You're not really that stupid are you? Dishonest, maybe, but
not that stupid. OK - maybe some of both, Lloyd - err - I mean - Neil.

From an obviously exagerated book time for the job, as I and others have
shown. Garbage in, garbage out as the saying goes.

No that's what you speak out of.

Yeah - I just said goodbye to your sister..

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Oops - can't forget this other quote of yours too, Neil, in this very
same thread: "...and having sold alignment equipment for a living, can
tell you that a majority of shops could care less whether a machine
comes with a printer".

Gee - besides your own statement that you were a paid alignment
technician, I can't imagine where I got the idea that you had personal
ties to the industry, Neil.

Busted!!

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

You sure you're not Lloyd?

Hmm. I've asked this too. Hands up, everyone who's sure they're not Lloyd!


--Geoff
(sure I'm not Lloyd)

 

Hmmm - I wonder why it's so much higher than for other vehicles.[/QUOTE]

Because it takes longer.
No, actually, I'm making this all up in spite of the fact that
the friggin times (warranty and customer pay) are well published
and easily available to anyone.

You should have bothered to actually read the procedure.
The knuckle bolts have to be replaced in order to adjust camber.
Oh... we did go over that previously. Pay attention Bill.

No adjustment? I believe you were a participant in a discussion
on that also. Yes adjustment. Pay attention Bill.

The factory warranty time is also proportionately higher, i.e.,
2.0 hours. Last time I checked, the factory wasn't making a
habit out of setting warranty labor times any higher than what
was necessary/what they could get away with, in fact, they tend
to cut them to the bone.
But you'd have known that if you had any actual experience other
than that obtained from your armchair.
(oh but Neil, Bill changed both speed sensors in his transaxle,
he sure sounds like an expert to me)

Gee, too bad the labor times for warranty and customer pay, labor
times established by time study, don't agree.
Since there is an overwhelming certainty that you weren't there
during the time studies, and have never even done an alignment on
an automobile, your "Because they don't take longer" doesn't mean
diddly-squat.

You should read what you write Bill, my comments were based upon
your useage of the words "I doubt."

I find that you believe that I'm "fantasizing" about you to be
self centered, naive and ignorant. So, what else is new.

Oh, now you're a medical expert? Do your qualifications in that
area come from the same place as you qualifications on things
automotive? I bet they do. Bill learned fixin' cars from Jethro
and he learned doctorin' from Granny.
Stay tuned for the 'New" Beverly Hillbillies, starring Bill
Putney as "Jed," Bill Putney as "Granny," Bill Putney as
"Jethro," Bill Putney as "Ellie May," Bill Putney as "Miss Jane,"

Wheeeeew doggies, I can't wait.

Bill, knowing how to do alignments and having in previous jobs
actually -done- alignments does not necessarily mean that I am at
the present time currently in that part of the business.
If that is too complicated for you to understand to the point
that you feel compelled to call me a liar or accuse me of being
dishonest, that's your problem, not mine.
You'd be smarter off to stop wearing your desperation on your
sleeve where everyone can see it.

They're providing what the consumer demands. Since consumers
such as yourself "doubt" that a four wheel alignment can cost or
should cost or should take as long as it does, it's the consumer
who is committing the fraud, the shop is merely attempting to
meet them somewhere in between. It's the Walmart mentality in
action, consumers are willing to settle for less quality because
they are only capable of making decisions based upon price and
the fact that most of them wouldn't know quality if it bit them
on their ass..
The shop is faced with the choice of offering 'something' or
nothing. To remain competative, something has to be cut, that is
always the case no matter what the product or service is, but it
is not the shops/stores fault, it is the consumers fault.

No Bill, there is a very big difference between a shop not
actually having performed a service versus them modifying a
service to meet customer demands.
A better analogy would be shop "A" does a lube oil and filter
using premium oil and a premium filter and the proper chassis
grease, they check the lights, they check the tires, they inspect
the drive belts, they check the brakes, they check the
transmssion and differential, versus shop "B" who does a lube,
oil and filter using bulk genaric oil and a genaric filter, they
don't do any inspection of the vehicle, just slam it back down on
the floor and drive it out.
Shop "B" makes more profit than shop "A" but neither one is
committing fraud, it's up to the consumer to determine which is
the better value.
Now we'll examine shop "A" versus shop "B" doing an alignment.
Shop "A" sets the vehicle to the optimal settings for good
handling, no pull, minimal tire wear and a centered steering
wheel, the vehicle is test driven to make certain there is no
pull from road crown and no unusual noises.
Shop "B" adjusts the setting so that they are "in spec," close
enough that the tires won't shred in the distance the customer is
going on his way home, nothing is optimized, there is no road
test so they can't even tell if the vehicle pulls or not but
every setting falls with-in the manufacturers range of acceptable.

In both analogies, both shops want to realize the same profit
margin, neither shop is committing fraud but there is an obvious
difference in the end product and more often than not, the
customer is going to choose the lesser priced, fewer sevices
performed product than the higher priced, more sevices, more
accurate product. The customer gets crap because he has forced
the quality product off the shelf.

Yeah Bill, I've seen those menu boards, every time I've gone into
McDonalds for a coffee, there they are!
I mean good lord, how many times do I have to post it in these
groups.... People-people-people, stop taking your car to
McDonalds for service work.
Who's the idiot Bill?

No Bill, the "menu" price, the MCDONALDS price.
That price. The "a Big Mac is the same price no matter where you
are, it's always the same price," price. The "always the low
price" price.
Did they have a clown on that menu board, was there an old man
there at the entry way handing out shopping carts?
Did you grab a job application?

Can't say. All I can do is relate the real labor time to perform
the service, compare it to your data and tell you that something
doesn't add up.

Why, don't you have electricity? (sorry, I didn't know)

A smart guy like you should be able to figure that out.

What were you expecting, a crying towel?
Sorry, fresh out.

Right. Every time something doesn't work out, it's because of
lazyness and fraud. It must be a terrible burden to be so
perfect.
You are -SO- laughable. In one breath you tell -me- to get
medical help, and in the next, you demonstrate the depths of your
paranoia. As I said before, you are not to be taken seriously.

Dunno, are you really that paranoid?

What have I done that's dishonest?
Please, find me just one customer that will come forward and
claim that I've ever done anything dishonest to them.
You know, honesty works both ways, I also have to be honest to
myself and that includes charging the full labor time as it is
published when I service a vehicle, since that is at odds with
what you believe, that makes -you- the dishonest one.
So yes Bill, your mechanics -are- dishonest, they're dishonest
because they sell themselves short depriving those who depend on
them for support (wives, children) to provide for them in the
best manner possible.

Bill, the factory warranty labor time for a four wheel alignment
on a second generation LH car is 2.0 hours, that makes 2.6 labor
hours for customer pay very much in line and correct.
The factory has NEVER been known to be anywhere near generous
with their published labor times, NEVER. Warranty labor times
are strictly based upon the actual hands on working on the car
time, they fall well short when it comes to the actual time it
takes to do a job. They do not account for the time it takes to
procure the tools needed, they do not account for any test drive
time, they do not account for machine set up time, they do not
account for the time it takes to look up specifications and/or
TSBs. IOWs, if you need to take a whiz, you better hold it until
quitting time.
IOWs, you are so clueless, you make me laugh.

I have no choice because that happens to be the part of your body
where your brain is located.

Wasn't -my- sister, must have been yours.

 

"Busted?"

Gee Bill, I was in the Cub Scouts some years ago, but I'm not
now. What do you suppose -that- means?

You know, I struggle, I really struggle with the concept that
there really are people out there that are too stupid to pour
piss out of a boot even though the instructions are printed on
the heel.

Sadly, as often happens, you are too stupid to even recognise
what a fool you've made yourself to appear.

Why do you go out of your way to make your desperation so obvious?

 

Because it takes longer.
No, actually, I'm making this all up in spite of the fact that
the friggin times (warranty and customer pay) are well published
and easily available to anyone.

You should have bothered to actually read the procedure.
The knuckle bolts have to be replaced in order to adjust camber.
Oh... we did go over that previously. Pay attention Bill.[/QUOTE]

Mine came with one cam bolt on either side (so, one camming bolt, one
"normal" bolt per side). If the camber can't be adjusted into the
acceptable range with the one camming bolt, the second knuckle
(spindle)-to-strut bolt can be replaced with an camming bolt identical
to the other one to double the range of adjustment. If that is
required, the shop is justified to charge for the part and labor of
replacing it. Not a big deal.

You misunderstand. The caster is not adjustable by normal means. *If*
the bilateral (side-to-side difference) caster is out of range, the TSB
that was mentioned talks about being able to shift the engine cradle
using the normal clearance between the four cradle bolts and their holes
to twist the cradle location to bring the side-to-side difference into
spec. - but, again - that would not be considered to be within the scope
of the normal alignment - it is expected to be within tolerance. That
is a means to get rid of the lead if something is out of whack that is
causing an out of spec. side-to-side caster measurement and associated
lead/pull.

I only had one speed sensor go bad and replaced only the bad one, not
that it makes any difference.

.... ... ...

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

The cam bolts could have been installed previous to your
ownership, even to the point where it was done during
pre-delivery inspection.
I can't say for certain whether the cam bolts come standard from
the factory, tomorrow I'll slide under the Intrepid and see if
there's any there...

I'm not misunderstanding anything, I've been jacking subframes to
set caster dating back to 1978/79 on the original GM "X" bodies
which was also listed as not having adjustable caster, even
though it is.

Understood.