Intrepid High Mount Stop Lamp LEDs?

You're saying that a 1/10 to 3/10 second delay will not have some effect on
the statisitcs? That's, by definition, for any situation wherein the first
clue that a driver has that something is about to happen that requires his/her
action to avoid an accident is the lighting of this light, time stacked onto
all other delays inherent in response time of a driver. So you don't think it
would have even a 1 in 100,000 statistical effect (i.e., accidents that would
not have happened with 0.2 seconds more advance warning)? That's all I was
saying.

Possibly, but I still think there has to be some statistical effect - assuming
the driver is alert enough to notice a light at all, 0.2 seconds advance
warning is still 0.2 seconds off the reaction time - not measureable (re:
accident vs. no accident) on a case-by-case basis, but still statistical..

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
with "x")

 

I'm not sure that LEDs will lose their benefits over incandescent bulbs. For
example, LED traffic signals are usually easier to see, especially the arrows
pointing every which way that my state likes to show the movements you can
make at an intersection, instead of merely using them for protected turns.

However, green LEDs can be dazzling bright at night. I wish those $100,000
traffic signals could include a photo sensor to dim them at night. I've heard
that they claim they don't/won't do this because of concerns of dimming too
much in bad weather during the day. Fix the photo sensor sensitivity, I say.

 

Exactly such an arrangement is used with LED traffic lights in Europe and
elsewhere in the world. As usual, North American regulators don't give a
shit about glare.

Can't say I've ever heard this -- if anyone's used it, it's a lame excuse.

DS

 

Er...but it does. Go do an UMTRI search; a great deal of research has been
done on it.

Aye caramba. Not this ignorant stupidity again. As I recall, that was your
theory on center high mount brake lamps of any type, as well.

 

Hey, Dan,
How 'bout a recommendation of a brand of 912 lamps for the Intrepid CHMSL?
One or the other is always burnt out in mine. Maybe I'm buying el-cheapo
stuff? Anyway, replacing 'em got old the first time.

--Geoff

 

There's no longer as much choice in the matter -- even the major brands
are buying a lot of their stuff out of China, Korea, Taiwan, etc. Best
advice I can give is to use a major brand (GE, Narva, Philips, Wagner,
Sylvania) and check for country-of-origin information.

DS

 

I notice that GE (possibly other mfgrs.) list a variation of it with an
"...LL" suffix indicating *L*ong *L*ife. Probably more mechanically
robust filament (duh!) at the sacrifice of a little brightness and/or
efficiency. Seems I remember seeing many replacement bulbs on the bulb
rack at Advance A.P. in the LL flavor - don't recall if the 912 was one
of 'em, but I think it was.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

GE does not make or sell a 912LL bulb, nor does Philips. Don't believe
Sylvania does, but they might. It's already considered a "long life" bulb
with a 1000-hour rating.

No, you're confusing LL bulbs with HD bulbs. HD bulbs have greater
mechanical robustness; LL bulbs just have longer life (with reduced
efficacy).

DS

 

Yes. Marketed by Sylvania. They claim upwards of 10K hours, but some
are below 1K hours.

http://www.sylvania.com/auto/llspecs.htm

 

Hmmm - I see the 921LL (Concorde, 300M, LHS), but no 912LL (Intrepid).

OK - I just drove the 1/4 mile to the Advance store - what they have
agrees with that list - they have the Sylvania 921LL and the 912 (no 921
and no 912LL). *BUT* I noticed that the two bulbs are physically
interchangeable (same base, same bulb size) - probably different wattage
and intensity. But if it's not too much of a brightness mismatch, you
might try the 921LL to see if it last longer in the 'trep.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

12 MSCP for the 912
21 MSCP for the 921.

Risk of socket and reflector melting by using 921s in place of 912s. I
tried a similar swap on one of my Chrysler products, and wound up having
to replace the CHMSL after a few months. Net savings from the longer-life
bulb: Negative.

 

Isn't that the truth. I wonder why it doesn't bother them personally.

Not just anyone, US DOT (FHWA). They think that LED traffic lights controlled
by photosensors may be too dim during bad weather. No doubt the European
engineers that were the recipient of this letter were baffled by it.
http://www.atssa.com/pubinfo/downloads/6-14-02.PDF

They also noted that LED output will drop gradually, while incandescent bulbs
will still produce 75-80% of initial output until they fail all at once.
http://www.atssa.com/pubinfo/downloads/7-1-02a.PDF
(warning: the second document gets fairly technical about lighting
properties).

 

Yeah. Sorry Dan but no matter how much you try, you cannot explain
away stupidity behind the wheel by equipment.

People have been trying to blame cars for their collisions since the
automobile
was invented. "The winshield wasn't big enough" "There aren't enough
mirrors"
"The brake light wasn't big enough" "The brake light wasn't high enough"
"The brake light didn't come on fast enough" blah blah blah.

Notice you never see people claiming their accident was caused because
they were tailgating, or driving faster than is appropriate for conditions,
or
they were looking at the girl built like a brick shithouse on the side of
the
road, or their supermegasodapop just fell into their lap and split open, or
they were yakking on the cell phone or adjusting the radio, or their dog
let a fart off....

You can put 2 foot in diameter 200 candlepower red lamps on the
back of all vehicles and your still going to have plenty of rear end
collisions.

For every $100 that is dumped into more studies and research to
fuss around with brake lights, I could dump $10 into increasing
incarceration times for drunk drivers and
get 5 times better results in reducing collisions.

But of course, it's a God-Given-Right in this country for everyone to
drive their shitmobile any way they please, and to buy a far bigger and
more powerful car than they are able to handle, and your a fucking
sonofabitch if you try to take my keys away even if I'm 90 years old
and can't see 2 feet in front of my face.

When was the last time you looked at the joke of criteria that states use
to grant drivers licenses? 70% right on a multiple choice, open book
test, with a 20 minute "drivers test" on 35Mph or under roads, with NO
requirement for drivers ed, NO requirement for demonstrating proficiency
in handling a car on ice, snow, rain, etc. does not make for any kind of
safe driving population.

I'm just waiting to see whats going to happen in another 20 years when the
baby boomers are all in the retirement homes, it's going to be like an
amusement bumper car ride on the highways then. Unless that is, the
regulators have all by then decided that since bigger brake lights aren't
working, they are now going to mandate external 2 foot bricks of bubble
wrap on all 4 sides of all vehicles.

Face the facts. Your never going to reduce collisions by dicking with
the equipment when the number of vehicles on the road is increasing faster
than the amount of miles of roadway
laid down, and none of the politicians are willing to have the balls to
start mandating some real drivers license certification programs, and
mandatory retest programs every 5 years. The only thing that the
center brake lights and LED brake lights are going to do is give the
politicians an excuse for doing something when people complain.

"See" they will say "We mandated better brake lights, we are doing
something about accident rates!!!"

Ted

 

No matter how much you try to obfuscate with your endless blather, you still
can't get away from the fact that studies have been conducted and
conclusions have been drawn. You're free to debate the conclusions on their
scientific merits (as if!), but rest assured nobody with an ounce of sense
is going to accept the idea that the studies are wrong just because you
don't like what they say, or because they don't fit in with your
oh-so-carefully crafted line of BS!

It sure sounds like you have a "don't confuse me with the facts"
policy...are you sure your name ain't Lloyd?

--Geoff

 

|
| | > On Tue, 24 Feb 2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
| >
| > > I doubt that the delay has anything whatsoever to do with it.
| >
| > Er...but it does. Go do an UMTRI search; a great deal of research has been
| > done on it.
| >
| > > Once everyone has one, and you see the things on the ass-end of
| > > everything from New Bugs to crackerboxes going down the road,
| > > they will be no more effective than the incandescent lights
| >
| > Aye caramba. Not this ignorant stupidity again. As I recall, that was your
| > theory on center high mount brake lamps of any type, as well.
| >
|
| Yeah. Sorry Dan but no matter how much you try, you cannot explain
| away stupidity behind the wheel by equipment.
|
| People have been trying to blame cars for their collisions since the
| automobile
| was invented. "The winshield wasn't big enough" "There aren't enough
| mirrors"
| "The brake light wasn't big enough" "The brake light wasn't high enough"
| "The brake light didn't come on fast enough" blah blah blah.
|
| Notice you never see people claiming their accident was caused because
| they were tailgating, or driving faster than is appropriate for conditions,
| or
| they were looking at the girl built like a brick shithouse on the side of
| the
| road, or their supermegasodapop just fell into their lap and split open, or
| they were yakking on the cell phone or adjusting the radio, or their dog
| let a fart off....
|
| You can put 2 foot in diameter 200 candlepower red lamps on the
| back of all vehicles and your still going to have plenty of rear end
| collisions.
|
| For every $100 that is dumped into more studies and research to
| fuss around with brake lights, I could dump $10 into increasing
| incarceration times for drunk drivers and
| get 5 times better results in reducing collisions.
|
| But of course, it's a God-Given-Right in this country for everyone to
| drive their shitmobile any way they please, and to buy a far bigger and
| more powerful car than they are able to handle, and your a fucking
| sonofabitch if you try to take my keys away even if I'm 90 years old
| and can't see 2 feet in front of my face.
|
| When was the last time you looked at the joke of criteria that states use
| to grant drivers licenses? 70% right on a multiple choice, open book
| test, with a 20 minute "drivers test" on 35Mph or under roads, with NO
| requirement for drivers ed, NO requirement for demonstrating proficiency
| in handling a car on ice, snow, rain, etc. does not make for any kind of
| safe driving population.
|
| I'm just waiting to see whats going to happen in another 20 years when the
| baby boomers are all in the retirement homes, it's going to be like an
| amusement bumper car ride on the highways then. Unless that is, the
| regulators have all by then decided that since bigger brake lights aren't
| working, they are now going to mandate external 2 foot bricks of bubble
| wrap on all 4 sides of all vehicles.
|
| Face the facts. Your never going to reduce collisions by dicking with
| the equipment when the number of vehicles on the road is increasing faster
| than the amount of miles of roadway
| laid down, and none of the politicians are willing to have the balls to
| start mandating some real drivers license certification programs, and
| mandatory retest programs every 5 years. The only thing that the
| center brake lights and LED brake lights are going to do is give the
| politicians an excuse for doing something when people complain.
|
| "See" they will say "We mandated better brake lights, we are doing
| something about accident rates!!!"
|
| Ted
|

I hate it when people hold back saying what they really think about something!
;-)

 

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:


<snip Ted's ignorant rant about improvements in vehicle signalling being
pointless, also snip his ignorant blather about improvements being
illusory and entirely attributable to the novelty effect>

Ted, all I can suggest is that you remove the bulbs from your car's every
signal lamp, front and rear, and use hand signals only. Remember: Left arm
straight out for a left turn, forearm up for a right turn, forearm down
for slowing or stopping.

Not only will this -- per your theory -- be equally effective as whatever
brake lamp(s) have been designed in the last 70 years, but the novelty
effect -- again, per your theory -- should actually make you safer.

Hope you live someplace with a warm and dry climate.

DS

 

| On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
|
|
| <snip Ted's ignorant rant about improvements in vehicle signalling being
| pointless, also snip his ignorant blather about improvements being
| illusory and entirely attributable to the novelty effect>
|
| Ted, all I can suggest is that you remove the bulbs from your car's every
| signal lamp, front and rear, and use hand signals only. Remember: Left arm
| straight out for a left turn, forearm up for a right turn, forearm down
| for slowing or stopping.
|
| Not only will this -- per your theory -- be equally effective as whatever
| brake lamp(s) have been designed in the last 70 years, but the novelty
| effect -- again, per your theory -- should actually make you safer.
|
| Hope you live someplace with a warm and dry climate.
|
| DS

Hard to sell replacement light bulbs with this suggestion Daniel! ;-)

 

In fairness, you and DS have previously cited "rigorous studies" to make
light of OPs, yet when asked to cite same, have yet to respond.

As examples, take the Voevodsky Cyberlite/SFO taxi fleet and flashing
brake light/aviation ACL threads. No feedback yet. TRB was in
January.

Over to you, again.

- RWM

 

Actually, it is only Ted M. who has failed to give references to support
his views. Presumably that is because there are no data to support his
views. Me, I've given many references, each time this debate comes up.
It's come up enough times and I've given the refs enough times that anyone
may google for them or simply hit the UMTRI library online catalogue and
the PAL symposium proceedings indices; I will not type them in again.

DS

 

No, google the Voevodsky Cyberlite/SFO taxi fleet and flashing
brake light/aviation ACL threads. No feedback yet. TRB was in
January.

Over to you, again.

- RWM