Intrepid (99) wheel noise - CV joints?

My Intrepid (2nd generation, 36 kmi) recently started making
a strange sound. There is a squeaking/screeching sound
when the steering wheel has been turned hard at slow
speeds. It only seems to happen at slow speeds when the
vehicle has been sitting for a while and the engine is
cold. It typically happens when backing out of the driveway
or a parking space and turning hard to turn the car 90
degrees. Maybe it happens at higher speeds too, but I
don't think I would hear it over other noises, and of course
much less steering is used at higher speeds. It seems to
stop once the car gets moving and it doesn't happen EVERY
time I turn the wheel hard upon a cold startup. When I
turn hard I don't hold the wheel against the stops but stop
just before the stops.

I thought it might be brake disk squeaking (such as what I
sometimes get after a rain and the disks have a thin coating
of rust). However typically hearing this squeaking noise
only when turning hard leads me to suspect the Constant
Velocity joints. Is a noise a symptom of a CV joint
problem?

I'm taking the car to the dealer for the oil change this
time and am having some other routine maintenance done.
The oil change includes a (front end examination) so I want
to tell them about this, but don't want to diagnoise a
problem for them that I'm not really sure about.

Has anyone else experienced this or know what could be
causing this screeching noise?

 

consider "morning sickness". you will need a new rack and pinion soon.
for details search for morning sickness.

steerign will heavy at the start ups and you might feel some force pulses.
when it is hot, it does not cause any problems. it becomes more obvious at
lover speeds because you need more power at lover speeds.

It might be loose belt or low fluid level also.

good luck.

 

"Morning sickness" has a symptom of stiff steering, which is not my case at
all. In fact the steering if quite normal and takes little effort. The
steering fluid was changed (by dealer) about 5000 miles ago with no problems
noted. So I'm not convinced that this is the problem. Any other ideas?

 

Sounds like classic belt squeal, which can be very temperature dependent
(tend to do ti more when cold). Also, the biggest load on the belt is
when the car is sitting still or moving very slowly and you're turning
the wheels (steering wheel). Belt either needs to be replaced or simply
tightened.

I know the belts on certain (all?) LH engines do not have automatic
tensioners, so they do need manual adjustment and proper tensioning.

If the noise is mostly dependent on turning the steering wheel and not
on the tires/wheels rolling (which I think is what you were saying),
then it's definitely *not* CV joints or brake rotors. If it *IS*
related to the tires rolling at low speeds, it could be the front brake
pad tell-tales telling you that your pads are at end of life (they're
intentionally designed to squeal at that point). From your description,
I'm betting on thbe belts.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Thanks Bill. The noise only happens when the car is moving, I haven't
noticed it when applying brakes. Unfortunately it doesn't happen everytime,
but I think it is coming from the front right side of the vehicle. I'll
have them measure the belt tension. Good news for the CV joints is that
there is no clunk-clunk or anything like that.

 

Greg - Now it's leaning more towards brakes rather than belts (because
you say it only happens when moving). If the pad wear tell-tales are
sounding off, often they will get quiet when the brakes are applied -
only sounding when either not applied or very lightly applied. It can
be, and often is, very intermitent at first, and can be dependent on
turning or not turning because we're talking about a thin metal piece
just starting to scrape the rotor to make the intentional squealing
noise as the pads wear (at end of life) - IOW a movement of the rotor
only a few ten thousandths of an inch one way or the other due to
axle/bearing/rotor flexing from sideways stresses from turning the
vehicle can mean the difference of no scraping contact (no noise), light
scraping contact (squealing noise), or hard scraping contact (possibly
no noise). As they wear even further, you may find that they will make
noise even when not turning. I think you will find that the pads need
replacing and are trying to tell you so.

I hope this makes sense. (BTW - the rear brakes on the LH vehicles do
not have the tell-tales.)

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

It makes sense, but there appears to be quite a bit of life left in the front
pads, at least from what I can see from the outside of the wheels. How much of the
pad should be visible when the wear tell tales become audible? There's no rhyme
or reason as to when the squeaking occurs, although it happens more when first
using after being parked for a while. The squeaking tends to be when steering
hard left or hard right and sounds almost like an annoying squeaking door hinge.
Thanks!


Here are the brake sounds diagnostics
-------------------------------------
Condition: DISC BRAKE CHIRP
-
Possible Cause: 1. Excessive brake rotor runout.
Correction 1. Follow brake rotor diagnosis and testing. Correct as necessary.
-
Possible Cause 2. Lack of lubricant on brake caliper slides.
Correction 2. Lubricate brake caliper slides.
-------------------------------------
Condition DISC BRAKE RATTLE OR CLUNK
-
Possible Cause 1. Broken or missing anti-rattle spring clips or rail shims on
shoes.
Correction 1. Replace brake shoes, spring clips or rail shims as applicable.
-
Possible Cause 2. Caliper guide pins loose.
Correction 2. Tighten guide pins.
----------------------------------------------
Condition: DISC BRAKE SQUEAK AT LOW SPEED (WHILE APPLYING LIGHT BRAKE PEDAL
EFFORT)
-
Possible Cause 1. Brake shoe linings.
Correction 1. Replace brake shoes.
------------------------------------------------
SCRAPING (METAL-TOMETAL).
Possible Cause 1. Foreign object interference with brakes.
Correction 1. Inspect brakes and remove foreign object.
-
Possible Cause 2. Brake shoes worn out.
Correction 2. Replace brake shoes. Inspect rotors. Reface or replace as necessary.

 

I don't know the spec. for minimum pad material thickness, but it's
something on the order of 3/32" (2.5mm). If they're way thicker than
that, then it's not the warnings.

Sometimes the bearings can make squeaking noises like that too (sorry to
be all over the map on this - first belts, then brakes, now bearings).
It's hard to troubleshoot something like this without being there. If
the pads still have some meat on them, then I'd not worry about it until
some more certain and steady symptoms develop (may never happen - may go
away completely on their own).

It may be some contamination (grit) on the pads in combination with a
little drag. Possibly some day you will have some brake work done (new
pads and rotors), and it will go away. Make sure calipers move easily
on their slides, pistons are not stuck, and pads are installed
correctly.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Hmm, the plot thickens. I will take a casual look at it this weekend. Dealer last
week said they didn't find anything out of the ordinary, but couldn't take it on the
road and listen with windows open due to heavy rains. The noises are coming
more frequent. Still more often after being parked for a while, but not always.
The damned thing is that today I heard one pitch of squeak turning left and
another pitch, more creaky when turning right! So whatever is
making the noise sings in two keys. Go figure. I would love it to be some dirt
in the brakes and I plan to wash them this weekend as well. Thanks, Bill!

 

-- This is follow up to an earlier problem that I posted.
--

I think I might have solved, or at least diagnosed, the steering
noise problem
I was experiencing. The location of the sound was coming from
the front right wheel area while turning. It was most prevalent

while turning tight left, but could occur while turning right,
and sometimes
even straight. The problem appears to be a small disk rotor
shield
at the bottom of the brake rotor, inner side. This shield is
extremely
close to the rotor and is experiencing some rust. The shield
apparently
was contacting the rotor, especially during turns, producing the
sharp
squeak/squeeling noises.

I'm not sure if it is rust alone causing the contact or if the
shield is closer
to the rotor than it should be. A matchbook cover was too thick
to place
between the shield and the rotor when I first found the problem.

I used some thin cardboard and worked it back and forth to
remove
the rust from the inner side of the shield so it wouldn't
contact the rotor.
Hopefully sliding that cardboard back and forth didn't hurt the
disk
any, although I certainly don't think it would have.

I reinstalled the F.R. wheel, took it for a test drive, and no
more
squeaking noise!

I would like to know how much space should be between the shield

and the rotor. I couldn't find any details in the factory
service manual.
When I have time I will remove the front right tire so I can
compare
the amount of space between the shield and rotor there. It
maybe
possible to check this without removing the tire.

Unfortunate my fix will probably only be temporary as the rust
problem
will continue. Perhaps it needs to be replaced with a new
painted
shield part for a permanant fix.

On the other hand, there is another noise, (much quieter) that
is
still there. It sounds almost like crickets that increase
frequency as the car
speed increases and is really only noticeable with the driver
window
down while I drive by something (like a wall) that reflects the
sound
back to me. It's not particularly loud, so I'm not particularly
worried.
Perhaps this is caused by a similar problem on the left side
that is not
as severe yet as on the right.

I would appreciate any comments or information that anybody
might
have on either problem. If your car squeaks while turning,
perhaps
you have the same cause as I do.


Original Post:

 

This is follow up to an earlier problem that I posted.


I think I might have solved, or at least diagnosed, the steering
noise problem I was experiencing. The location of the sound was
coming from the front right wheel area while turning. It was most
prevalent

while turning tight left, but could occur while turning right, and
sometimes even straight. The problem appears to be a small disk
rotor shield at the bottom of the brake rotor, inner side. This
shield is extremely close to the rotor and is experiencing some
rust. The shield
apparently was contacting the rotor, especially during turns,
producing the
sharp squeak/squeeling noises.

I'm not sure if it is rust alone causing the contact or if the
shield is closer to the rotor than it should be. A matchbook cover
was too thick to place between the shield and the rotor when I first
found the problem.

I used some thin cardboard and worked it back and forth to remove
the rust from the inner side of the shield so it wouldn't contact
the rotor. Hopefully sliding that cardboard back and forth didn't
hurt the disk any, although I certainly don't think it would have.

I reinstalled the F.R. wheel, took it for a test drive, and no more
squeaking noise!

I would like to know how much space should be between the shield and
the rotor. I couldn't find any details in the factory service
manual. When I have time I will remove the front right tire so I
can compare the amount of space between the shield and rotor there.
It maybe possible to check this without removing the tire.

Unfortunate my fix will probably only be temporary as the rust
problem will continue. Perhaps it needs to be replaced with a new
painted shield part for a permanant fix. Is the original part
painted?

On the other hand, there is another noise, (much quieter) that is
still there. It sounds almost like crickets that increase frequency
as the car speed increases and is really only noticeable with the
driver window down while I drive by something (like a wall) that
reflects the sound back to me. It's not particularly loud, so I'm
not particularly worried. Perhaps this is caused by a similar
problem on the left side that is not as severe yet as on the right.

I would appreciate any comments or information that anybody might
have on either problem. If your car squeaks while turning, perhaps
you have the same cause as I do.

Original Post:

 

Greg -
Take a look at this photo:
http://images4.fotki.com/v38/photos/4/42816/143201/1282806_IMG-vi.jpg -
that is the steering knuckle removed so you can see that shield - you're
looking at the side that you see when you remove the wheel and rotor.

The rectangular metal flag pointing down is the shield you are talking
about. That keeps objects (rocks, etc.) from flying up and hitting the
rotor. They can scrape the rotor and make noise, which you have
discovered (which I am only realizing for the first time today - keep
reading).

Funny thing - if you take a look at this second photo
(http://images4.fotki.com/v41/photos/4/42816/143201/1212152_IMG-vi.jpg)
of the original steering knuckle and shield on my car in the process of
being removed and replaced with a different knuckle for upgrading my
brakes, you will see that it was, in fact, scraping the rotor. It
wasn't until I just now looked at that photo (while composing this post)
that I'm realizing that that was causing the squeeking that I *used* to
hear on my car but that mysteriously stopped once I did the upgrade.
Now I know why!! I never noticed the rub mark on that shield until
looking at that photo today!

You could bend that shield about 1/16" away from the rotor. But doing
so with anything metal will gouge up your rotor - so don't do that.
Unless you can work a wooden wedge in there to bend it for clearance,
you need to take the wheel and rotor off (requires removing the two
caliper mounting bolts and tieing the caliper to the strut spring), and
then bend the shield a little with an adjustable wrench, or whack it
with a hammer. Then put everything back together and make sure there is
some clearance between that shield and the rotor.

I learned something from you. Yours wasn't the first post on this ng or
on LH-specific forums about a minor squeak from a front wheel when wheel
bearings and brakes apppeared to be in good working order - but I think
you finally figured out what was causing it.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

This sharing information stuff is fun, Bill; thanks. {We get to share
technical information, and Lloyd gets to share that his political knowledge
was obtained from A.Franken.} In my case, I think the contact problem was
due to rust, or perhaps just small dirt and stones that eventually collected
in that tiny gap between the shield and rotor.

I wonder why they used such a small shield instead of a large one (a la the
rear brakes) but that would probably get in the way of the steering gear big
time.

So perhaps (I hope) my shield doesn't need to be moved, and the problem was
totally caused by rust build-up and/or debris in the gap. Not sure though, a
matchbook cover is a little less than 1/16 inch and it tightly fits in that
gap now. I don't want to remove the disk because that entails working on
the calipers, and I don't feel qualified to do that on my own. (Don't want
an oops to be discovered near the bottom of that big hill). But I think I
know where I could get help if I need it, or else just take it to the
dealer. Perhaps that shield / steering knuckle is covered by the 'added
care' service contract. By the way, do you know where that shield piece is
in the parts catalog? I looked under brakes, steering, front suspension,
frame, etc. and didn't see it.
--
In my case, sliding a little cardboard back and forth to get the gunk out
seems to be able to have cleared up the problem. (Although I admit I am a
tiny bit nervous about the debris causing abrasions on the disk as I did
this, but the problem causing the noise during driver probably did much more
damage, if any.) A piece of paper cardstock might be even better.

The FSM should include this tip in its noise diagnostic charts, instead of
just mentioning "foreign object interference." Also it would help if the
shield was even mentioned.

I'm going to keep an eye on this (an ear actually) to see what happens.
Now if only I knew what was causing that "cricket" noise....

 

If you simply remove the wheel and then put the lug nuts back on to hold
the rotor *loosely* in place (loosely so it has some wiggle), you will
have enough room between the rotor and the shield to put something thin
and hard like a small piece of sheet metal against the rotor, and pry
with the flat side of a screw driver blade against the sheet metal and
the shield to bend the shield away from the rotor. Otherwise the problem
will keep coming back. This way, you won't have to remove the caliper
and rotor. Or, again, you might be able to push a wooden wedge in there
with just the wheel removed.

I bet you have 15" wheels. I had the problem with the original 15"
wheel and brake setup I had on my Concorde. With the 16" conversion I
did with OEM parts, there is a good 1/8" gap between the shield and the
rotor. Also, as you read further, you will see that the shield's
purpose is to block brake heat from the lower control arm ball joint and
rubber - that explains why the shield is as narrow as it is - when you
look at the whole setup, you see that it is perfectly centered with
respect to that ball joint. As long as there is a good gap and it is
not touching the ball joint, you should be fine.

I wouldn't waste time with the dealer on this - you're liable to end up
with worse problems, and they may ignore the information you try to tell
them about what the problem really is - at most they will simply pry the
shield away from the rotor, so just avoid the hassle of taking it in and
do it yourself. They probably wouldn't be as careful not to scratch the
rotor.

By the way, do you know where that shield piece is

Not sure what parts catalog you're looking at, but on the Chrysler
micro-fiche (accessible on-line to members of the 300M Enthusiasts
Club), it shows up under "Group 2 - Front Suspension & Drive" as item
"-31" (the dash means it is not in the illustration) as P/N 4782 224AB,
and in the description of the screws, they are called heat shield screws
- so its purpose is actually to protect the lower control arm ball joint
and rubber from brake heat. I don't see where replacing it will
accomplish anything - and to replace it you would need to remove the
caliper and rotor. Bending the existing one is the answer IMO.

I wouldn't be concerned in the least about any damage to the rotor from
the debris or the rubbing - though the shield that rubbed on mine shows
a good bit of rubbing on the lowest half inch across its entire width, I
just took a look at the rotor that it was with, and there is no sign of
anything other than normal brake pad wear.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Greg Johnson wrote

Try the wheel covers or center spinner if you have that instead.
although the center spinner goes more to the "click" side.
Its simple to test -- just drive without.
They are only appearance items.

 

Ok, I will give that a try when I get a chance or the problem reoccurs.

I have the ES model with 16" wheels. Perhaps rust buildup reduced the gap?

Ahh, that makes sense. I was wondering why the rotor would need to be protected
from that ball joint, but didn't realize it was producing that much heat.

That's a good point. I don't even like paying the dealer fifteen or twenty bucks
to rotate the tires, for fear that they will overtighten the lug nuts (thus
warping the rotors) with their pneumatic tools. Plus rotation time is a good
oportunity to clean the wheels and protect the finish.

I found a 98-99 LH part catalog on the net and see the part you listed, thanks!

Excellent. By the way, what rotors did you use when you replaced yours? I notice
there are two flavors of stock rotors: standard with internal venting and
"performance" with external venting. I assume the Intrepid (non r/t) came with
standard rotors. Hopefully when the day comes to replace them, I will be able to
find a shop that puts on the rotors I want. I remember reading on this group that
there are several aftermarket pads which are better than the stock pads as well.
(For some reason, the FSM calls the disk pads shoes, even though the term shoes
usually refer to drum brakes. But then again, it calls the alternator a generator
too Technically correct, not commonly used.

 

Bill is completely correct. I had this annoying sound too when I first
purchased my 300M. Going over bumps or sharp turns it sounded almost
exactly like the sound made when a carbide bit lightly touches a rotor
that's being milled. I took the brakes apart and saw the wear mark on
the slash guard behind the rotor. I took the rotor off and used a
rubber dead blow hammer to slightly bend the guard inward (just the
little tab that points downward at the bottom). Problem solves. I'd
forgotten about this since it happened within days of me getting the
car. The mechanics at my dealer are known boneheads so I decided to
deal with it myself rather than tie my car up for (pick a number) days.

Cheers,

C

 

Maybe your shield is just plane bent and you need to straighten it? It
has to be that, or a tolerance stackup (rotor, wheel bearing, knuckle,
shield itself) that happened to put your shield against the rotor on
your vehicle (and on my original 15" setup).

Enough heat that over time could cook the grease in the joint and the
rubber seal.

You're welcome!

The performance (PHP) rotors are directly interchangeable with your
factory rotors - and cheaper too for some reason. Yes - only the R/T
came with PHP - venting is the only difference between the rotors
(vented from the outside on the PHP, as you said). No reason to *not*
replace with the PHP rotors.

Raybestos rotors are good - NAPA has them for $47 each (about $60 for
the non-PHP) re-boxed as their in-house United Brake brand - P/N 86777.
The counter guy may try to tell you that that P/N is for non-PHP because
the NAPA counter listings are wrong (however they are correctly listed
on NAPA's web site www.napaonline.com). The proof will be in the
venting which is visually obvious.

Those are the ones I went with. I went an extra step and had them
cryogenically treated. They are as smooth braking today as the day I
put them on even after a week's vacation in West Virginia with 3 mile 8
and 10% downhills with mutliple sudden braking from 55 to 25 mph for
hairpin turns. Would I have had the same results without the
treatment? I can't say for sure. I am only one of two people that I
know of that have done that to the rotors.

BTW - Just worry about replacing the front rotors. The rear brakes do
not see that much heat or wear and likely will last the life of the
car. Any warping issues would be with the fronts.

Actually I have seen fairly favorable comments on the OEM pads on
various forums (the dealer will sell you a "Valu-line" pad unless you
specifically tell them you want the original factory pads - prices are a
little steep compared to some good aftermarkets, but the quality of the
pads is apparently good - people seem to like the Valu-lines as well as
the originals - some people claim they produce less dust than the
factroy pads).

Hawk HPS pads are very popular on the LH vehicles - I have those and
they are doing very well. Some people on the 300M ezBoard have been
trying some ceramic pads and rotor combinations lately and seem happy
with them, but I am not up on the details of the manufacturers and P/N's
- seems they have been talking a lot recently about Akebo (or something
like that) ceramic pads from Tire Rack.

Apparently the industry (SAE?) has standardized on the term "generator"
again. As you say, it's technically correct. All alternators are
generators, but not all generators are alternators. They started using
the term "alternator" years ago when the industry switched from what
were then called generators (considered inferior) to what we came to
know as alternators to distinguish the two when technically the term
generator was accurate for both. Now that the old style automotive
"generators" are totally purged from the face of the earth, they have
gone back to the term generator for what we have on our cars today.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

I'm glad that we can consider this problem solved, it was driving me nuts!
Hopefully it will be easily found in the archives if somebody needs help
finding the problem in the future.

Here are some keywords for future searches to this thread:

{ brake squeak squeal steering rotor shield "splash guard" Intrepid LH
"My intrepid sounds like a subway train on a tight curve"
"front wheel" "steering knuckle" rotor scraping front end wheel }

Thanks guys!

 

Excellent information, thanks! I am filing this post away so that I can find this when
my brakes do go south. Hopefully I will be able to find a mechanic that puts on the
rotors/pads that I specify.