"Integrated" radios in some cars prohibit upgrades

Its been reported in the press that some 60 2004 year model cars have
tricked up radios that integrate the airconditioning system into a
dealer-only supplied unit that cannot be pulled out and replaced with an
aftermarket sound system. Some of these radios are also linked to the
car's alarm and computer diagnostic system also. Presumably, the radio
digital display is a multi-function display. It can display 870 kc or 78*
F, depending on the mode. Behind the display may not even be a radio
receiver! The components for the radio itself may be installed remotely
from the display and there may even be room or attaching brackets for an
aftermarket unit. You are screwed, in plain english. (On the other hand,
who needs anything other than EOM sound anyways?)

GM must be the germ seed of this tavesty of complexity because Cadillacs in
particular are afflicted. A certain Mr. Dave Hederich, a spokesman for
General Motor's eniggerneering division actually was quoted as saying,
"We're listening to the voice of the customer, and what most customers are
telling us is that they want a highly integrated product." What bullshit.

GM, as the other makers, don't listen to their customers on the very rare
occasions that customers even attempt to contact the companies. Go ahead,
make a suggestion that you don't want an "integrated" radio (a new term not
one in a hundred thousand ever heard of before) and see if you get a
non-form letter response. You'll be lucky to get a form letter response.
Make your suggestion in the showroom and the salesman will likely walk away
from you. Make it to the manager and he will just ask you if you want to
buy a car today.

I certainly don't want an "integrated" radio. Do you? And if not, why
not, because most do want it, according to Bullshit Dave.

 

Ergo, GM's "changing market share". Might want to ask them why they
offer DIN radio's in the EU products produced by GM if this is the way
to go....
North American Cars have always had overpriced shit radio's from new.
It took them how many years to introduce CD players that would decode
MP3's? How many GM's can be purchased wired for stereo's but without
said stereo's? (VW used to offer that).

GM had just better hope that Walmart & Target don't start to
distribute cars b/c those two retailers listen to their consumers and
even stand behind the products they retail.

 

Tight integration is a double-edged sword. It makes things compact and
light, and possibly initially inexpensive. Problems come when routine
repairs and maintenance need to be done. What could be a 1-1/2 hr
DIY/$75 professional job becomes a 4 to 8 hrs. DIY/$400 pro. job.

The LH cars are a perfect example of this. I went to do a complete
coolant system flush & replace themostat and all coolant hoses
yesterday, and decided before I even started to put it off for another
day because I had not allowed enough time when I realized that the
thermostat housing could not be reached without removing the under-slung
alternator, which in turn required removing the upper radiator cross
memeber) to loosen the alternator belt and the lower radiator support to
get the alternator out of the way of the thermostat housing. Or I could
have crossed my fingers and attempted to slip a 1/4" drive with
universal joint thru the barely visible cracks around the alternator,
hope to somehow be able to R&R the lower radiator and bypass hoses that
connect to the plastic thermostat housing (with no way to reach my hands
intot he area of the housing, and hope not to cross thread one of the
three Ø6mm screws holding the housing to the side of the block when I
attempted to start it using braille and a universal joint on the socket.

So bottom line, instead of a simple remove and replace thermostat and
two hoses like in the old days, you have to remove top radiator cross
member, alt. belt, lower radiator support, alternator, then R&R
thermostat housing and two hoses, then re-install alt, belt, upper and
lower radiator support.

To replace a headlight bulb on these cars, you have to detach the front
fascia and remove the headlight assembly first. To replace the battery,
you have to jack the car up and remove a wheel and splash shield.

But it's a fun car to drive.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Nomen Nescio wrote:
Behind the display may not even be a radio

This is nothing new. Car manufacturers have done this for years (early
90's GM trucks with the "square dash", late model Ford cars and maybe
latest trucks). Aftermarket companies almost always make an adapter or
something to work with these vehicles.

Do you have proof from the customers they surveyed? I myself do not care
for integrated radios either but from some magazine reviews I've read
and people I have talked to, the general feeling is the average Joe
Shmoe would prefer a "clean" looking dash as opposed to one the has an
aftermarket setup in it. So be careful calling it BS if you do not have
proof.

 

There are so many electronic systems in modern cars that you need a common
interface. The radio is a lousy choice but it's the only one that's
standard at the moment. Ideally you want a large display and a decent
input device like that found on navigation systems. Unfortunately nav
systems are expensive options at the moment so car companies can't use
them for other functions. In 5 years or so when nav systems are standard I
expect that you will find that all of the user interface functions will
migrate to that device and away from the radio. I also expect that by then
the nav system display will be in the right place which is the instrument
cluster not the center dash.

 

Bill Putney wrote:

....

Try changing a water pump on an Audi A6...

Rob

 

| On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:00:01 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote:
|
| > Its been reported in the press that some 60 2004 year model cars have
| > tricked up radios that integrate the airconditioning system into a
| > dealer-only supplied unit that cannot be pulled out and replaced with an
| > aftermarket sound system. Some of these radios are also linked to the
| > car's alarm and computer diagnostic system also. Presumably, the radio
| > digital display is a multi-function display. It can display 870 kc or 78*
| > F, depending on the mode. Behind the display may not even be a radio
| > receiver! The components for the radio itself may be installed remotely
| > from the display and there may even be room or attaching brackets for an
| > aftermarket unit. You are screwed, in plain english. (On the other hand,
| > who needs anything other than EOM sound anyways?)
|
| There are so many electronic systems in modern cars that you need a common
| interface. The radio is a lousy choice but it's the only one that's
| standard at the moment. Ideally you want a large display and a decent
| input device like that found on navigation systems. Unfortunately nav
| systems are expensive options at the moment so car companies can't use
| them for other functions. In 5 years or so when nav systems are standard I
| expect that you will find that all of the user interface functions will
| migrate to that device and away from the radio. I also expect that by then
| the nav system display will be in the right place which is the instrument
| cluster not the center dash.

This is too funny for words. It's a car for cripe sakes! Why, all of a
sudden, do cars need a "user interface"? So, I take it cars will be as easy to
use as VCR's are...huh?! We all know from surveys that less than 5% of the
population even know how to use their VCR. I guess that explains why my
neighbor (after 3 years) still can't figure out how to make his lights (not the
DRLs, but the regular lights) turn off on his LeSabre in the daytime. Look
folks this is real simple. A multi-detent pull switch for the lights and one
for the wipers (none of this "stalk" crap!). A couple of knobs for the climate
controls and the radio. Bingo...you can drive anywhere now. Simple...huh?!
Geesh..."user interface"...gimme a break!!!

 

I, for one, am happy with the performance of today's OEM radios, but
having systems "integrated" could potentially make a small problem, like
the cassete player not working, into a bigger problem, like the engine
not running. OK, that's a little exageration, but while I'm very happy
with the performance of my Chrysler and VW OEM sound systems, I'd prefer
they be totally independant of all othe vehicle systems.

 

Thankfully You've got Chrysler's vaunted build quality to assure you
that you won't have to do many repairs for the first 5,000 miles

I Love the look & the driving feel of the LH's BUT when it came to
spending my money on something that I'd actually have to own and
maintain I bought an Olds 98. For the wife it was a Windstar to
replace the Caravan.

On the whole I'd say that Chryslers are great cars.... to lease !
On the subject of messy dashboards. A standard DIN chassis makes sure
that any radio change looks clean. I wish that on my car I could
change the radio for something includes XM reception but the radio
size and the controls in the steering wheel preclude a clean swap

 

I agree. Except that he was right, cars need a user interface to display all
computer input and output data, the logic behind it, and error codes.
Unfortunately, they don't have it. Using the radio to control other,
simplistic functions is just silly. It's the worst of both worlds. They
don't want you to replace your radio, AND they don't want you to be able to
fix an intermittent engine problem.

Fuel injected cadillacs actually had that engine computer interface built
into them for years (not in the radio, it was in the hvac controls). I don't
know if they still do or not, or if any other cars have it. But it was
awesome and it's really needed.

 

Yup, I'm in the same position on my 97 Taurus.. Gave you seen the oval dash
inserts so you can put a standard radio in? ugh.. They look terrible..
really bad.

 

I don't know when GM started it, but the 2003 Honda Accord has this
"feature" as well. It's especially stupid with manual A/C since the
display isn't used for any hvac functions. Also, why be mistakenly
fumbling with hvac controls when you just want to change the music?

What's next, integrating power windows with gear selectors?

 

GM must be the germ seed of this tavesty of complexity because Cadillacs
in
particular are afflicted. A certain Mr. Dave Hederich, a spokesman for
General Motor's eniggerneering division actually was quoted as saying,
"We're listening to the voice of the customer, and what most customers
are
telling us is that they want a highly integrated product." What
bullshit.
I could not agree more.
I want the bells and whistles in my car.

I HOWEVER DO NOT WANT IT ALL COMBINED.

Why are Plasma TV's not sold with a Tuner, radio, stereo, DVD, CD,
MP3,X-Box,Tivo, VCR, built into it?
Why are the ALL in-one units the LOW END of the consumer market?
Why is it you find the "value-packed" all in one units at walmart instead Of
The Home Theater store?

The STS buyer wants the gimmicky crap but GM is giving them the walmart
product.
DUMB.

There are customers that are forced to take a CD stereo in there new
caddilac, yet the customer goes out searching for an add on CASSETTE player.
And there ARE NONE MADE!

 

Look at all of the systems that are available in a modern car

1) The radio itself
It's not just AM/FM any more. It also has XM or Sirius satellite
radio. Instead of a couple of dozen stations you now have a hundred or
more.
2) Trip computer
These have been in cars for 20 years now. It's a separate device but it
doesn't have to be.
3) Diagnostic Information
There is a huge amount of computing power in todays engines. It's now
possible to determine detailed failure information. You need a place to
display it. The old check engine light was meaningless, if the engine
know that it has a problem it would be nice if it could tell you what it
is.
4) Blue Tooth Phone
Hands free phone operation makes it possible to use the phone safely.
It's less dangerous to use a truely hands free phone then it is to talk
to a passenger. For the phone to wrok well it has to be integrated into
the audio system of the car. Having the phone book a large readable
display would also be useful.
5) Navigation System
This is the biggest advance in years. Ideally you want a large clear
display as well as audio directions so that you don't have to watch the
display except for an occasional glance.
6) Instrument Cluster
This is the oldest display in the car, it can be easily integrated with
the other information.

The best way to handle all of this is one large LCD in place of the
instrument cluster. I think the Pacifica already does this (I'm judging
from the ads I haven't seen the inside of a Pacifica), but every other
car still spreads these functions over a number of separate devices. When
the nav system is standard then we will see a single integrated system,
until then we will be stuck with a proliferation of separate systems.

 

GM isn't the only, or even the biggest offender. Very few auto makers
offer cassette players in their cars anymore. I too would prefer a
cassette deck, but lotsa luck!

I'm not a big one for a lot of bells & whistles on a car myself. I
just want basic transportation...reliable and roomy. Quality
construction too...not some tinny pos like a Kia or a Hundai. I don't
have the slightest use for climate control, remote keyless entry or
any of the other doodads that seem to be standard equipment these
days.

 

| Look at all of the systems that are available in a modern car
|
| 1) The radio itself
| It's not just AM/FM any more. It also has XM or Sirius satellite
| radio. Instead of a couple of dozen stations you now have a hundred or
| more.
| 2) Trip computer
| These have been in cars for 20 years now. It's a separate device but it
| doesn't have to be.
| 3) Diagnostic Information
| There is a huge amount of computing power in todays engines. It's now
| possible to determine detailed failure information. You need a place to
| display it. The old check engine light was meaningless, if the engine
| know that it has a problem it would be nice if it could tell you what it
| is.
| 4) Blue Tooth Phone
| Hands free phone operation makes it possible to use the phone safely.
| It's less dangerous to use a truely hands free phone then it is to talk
| to a passenger. For the phone to wrok well it has to be integrated into
| the audio system of the car. Having the phone book a large readable
| display would also be useful.
| 5) Navigation System
| This is the biggest advance in years. Ideally you want a large clear
| display as well as audio directions so that you don't have to watch the
| display except for an occasional glance.
| 6) Instrument Cluster
| This is the oldest display in the car, it can be easily integrated with
| the other information.
|
| The best way to handle all of this is one large LCD in place of the
| instrument cluster. I think the Pacifica already does this (I'm judging
| from the ads I haven't seen the inside of a Pacifica), but every other
| car still spreads these functions over a number of separate devices. When
| the nav system is standard then we will see a single integrated system,
| until then we will be stuck with a proliferation of separate systems.
|

Makes one wonder how we ever survived all those years without all that stuff.
;-)

 

| "I'm Right" wrote in message |
| > I could not agree more.
| > I want the bells and whistles in my car.
| >
| > I HOWEVER DO NOT WANT IT ALL COMBINED.
| >
| >
| > There are customers that are forced to take a CD stereo in there new
| > caddilac, yet the customer goes out searching for an add on CASSETTE
player.
| > And there ARE NONE MADE!
|
| GM isn't the only, or even the biggest offender. Very few auto makers
| offer cassette players in their cars anymore. I too would prefer a
| cassette deck, but lotsa luck!
|
| I'm not a big one for a lot of bells & whistles on a car myself. I
| just want basic transportation...reliable and roomy. Quality
| construction too...not some tinny pos like a Kia or a Hundai. I don't
| have the slightest use for climate control, remote keyless entry or
| any of the other doodads that seem to be standard equipment these
| days.

I agree. How did we get to this place?

 

We survived without TV, personal computers and antibiotics, that doesn't
mean that anyone wants to go back to a world without those things.

 

| On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:58:26 -0400, James C. Reeves wrote:
|
| >
| > | > | Look at all of the systems that are available in a modern car
| > |
| > | 1) The radio itself
| > | It's not just AM/FM any more. It also has XM or Sirius satellite
| > | radio. Instead of a couple of dozen stations you now have a hundred or
| > | more.
| > | 2) Trip computer
| > | These have been in cars for 20 years now. It's a separate device but it
| > | doesn't have to be.
| > | 3) Diagnostic Information
| > | There is a huge amount of computing power in todays engines. It's now
| > | possible to determine detailed failure information. You need a place to
| > | display it. The old check engine light was meaningless, if the engine
| > | know that it has a problem it would be nice if it could tell you what it
| > | is.
| > | 4) Blue Tooth Phone
| > | Hands free phone operation makes it possible to use the phone safely.
| > | It's less dangerous to use a truely hands free phone then it is to talk
| > | to a passenger. For the phone to wrok well it has to be integrated into
| > | the audio system of the car. Having the phone book a large readable
| > | display would also be useful.
| > | 5) Navigation System
| > | This is the biggest advance in years. Ideally you want a large clear
| > | display as well as audio directions so that you don't have to watch the
| > | display except for an occasional glance.
| > | 6) Instrument Cluster
| > | This is the oldest display in the car, it can be easily integrated with
| > | the other information.
| > |
| > | The best way to handle all of this is one large LCD in place of the
| > | instrument cluster. I think the Pacifica already does this (I'm judging
| > | from the ads I haven't seen the inside of a Pacifica), but every other
| > | car still spreads these functions over a number of separate devices. When
| > | the nav system is standard then we will see a single integrated system,
| > | until then we will be stuck with a proliferation of separate systems.
| > |
| >
| > Makes one wonder how we ever survived all those years without all that
stuff.
| > ;-)
|
| We survived without TV, personal computers and antibiotics, that doesn't
| mean that anyone wants to go back to a world without those things.
|

Apples and oranges. Simple system/component controls existed on cars before a
"user interface". Those on your list didn't exist. IF progress adds value,
sure. Adding color, surround sound, etc to TV for example. But having 25
layers of menus to program lighting and wiper functions is just a bit
much...don't ya think? When one needs to refer to a manual to control things
that were intuitive before...that is, by definition, a "value-negative"
proposition.

 

True, but Wal-Mart and Target get all of their products from China. I don't
want a Chinese car or truck.

Brian