Hybrid Lovers Read This and Lament

Here is a shortlist of the most advanced Fuel cell companies

THE DAIMLERCHRYSLER F-Cell
THE FORD FOCUS FCV
GENERAL MOTORS Hy-wire and the HydroGen3
HONDAS FCX fuel
HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY FCEV
NISSANS
TOYOTA FCHV
VOLKSWAGENS Touran HyMotion

There is a well developed program that has been ongoing for more than a
decade and
there are several places in the world who are already playing an
important part in utilizing
these cars


California, USA
California Fuel Cell Partnership is to facilitate members' placement of
up to 300 fuel cell
cars and buses into fleets and to promote hydrogen fueling stations to
support them.


Hamburg, Germany is well placed to become one of the leading centres
for development of
products based on fuel cells.

Florida, USA hydrogen initiative with the production of eight hydrogen
powered shuttle
buses for use in the Orlando area

Ísland
Icelands first hydrogen fueling station is already operating on the
outskirts of Reykjavík.
The hydrogen, which powers a small fleet of fuel cell buses, is
produced onsite from
electrolyzed tap water.
Meanwhile the recently formed Icelandic New Energy-a
consortium that includes automakers, Royal Dutch/Shell and the
Icelandic power company Norsk Hydro-is planning to convert the rest
of the island nation to a hydrogen
system.

 

Here is a shortlist of the most advanced Fuel cell companies

THE DAIMLERCHRYSLER "F-Cell"
THE FORD FOCUS FCV
GENERAL MOTORS' Hy-wire and the HydroGen3
HONDA'S FCX fuel
HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY FCEV
NISSAN'S
TOYOTA FCHV
VOLKSWAGEN'S Touran HyMotion

There is a well developed program that has been ongoing for more than a
decade and there are several places in the world who are already
playing an important part in utilizing these cars

California, USA
California Fuel Cell Partnership is to facilitate members' placement of
up to 300 fuel cell cars and buses into fleets and to promote hydrogen
fueling stations to support them.

Hamburg, Germany is well placed to become one of the leading centres
for development of products based on fuel cells.

Florida, USA hydrogen initiative with the production of eight hydrogen
powered shuttle buses for use in the Orlando area

Ísland
Iceland's first hydrogen fueling station is already operating on the
outskirts of Reykjavík. The hydrogen, which powers a small fleet of
fuel cell buses, is produced onsite from electrolyzed tap water.
Meanwhile the recently formed Icelandic New Energy-a consortium that
includes automakers, Royal Dutch/Shell and the Icelandic power company
Norsk Hydro-is planning to convert the rest of the island nation to a
hydrogen system.

 

Here is a shortlist of the most advanced Fuel cell companies

THE DAIMLERCHRYSLER "F-Cell"
THE FORD FOCUS FCV
GENERAL MOTORS' Hy-wire and the HydroGen3
HONDA'S FCX fuel
HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY FCEV
NISSAN'S
TOYOTA FCHV
VOLKSWAGEN'S Touran HyMotion

There is a well developed program that has been ongoing for more than a
decade and
there are several places in the world who are already playing an
important part in utilizing
these cars


California, USA
California Fuel Cell Partnership is to facilitate members' placement of
up to 300 fuel cell
cars and buses into fleets and to promote hydrogen fueling stations to
support them.


Hamburg, Germany is well placed to become one of the leading centres
for development of
products based on fuel cells.

Florida, USA hydrogen initiative with the production of eight hydrogen
powered shuttle
buses for use in the Orlando area

Ísland
Iceland's first hydrogen fueling station is already operating on the
outskirts of Reykjavík.
The hydrogen, which powers a small fleet of fuel cell buses, is
produced onsite from
electrolyzed tap water. Meanwhile the recently formed Icelandic New
Energy-a
consortium that includes automakers, Royal Dutch/Shell and the
Icelandic power
company Norsk Hydro-is planning to convert the rest of the island
nation to a hydrogen
system.

 

Here is a shortlist of the most advanced Fuel cell companies

THE DAIMLERCHRYSLER "F-Cell"
THE FORD FOCUS FCV
GENERAL MOTORS' Hy-wire and the HydroGen3
HONDA'S FCX fuel
HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY FCEV
NISSAN'S
TOYOTA FCHV
VOLKSWAGEN'S Touran HyMotion

There is a well developed program that has been ongoing for more than a
decade and
there are several places in the world who are already playing an
important part in utilizing
these cars


California, USA
California Fuel Cell Partnership is to facilitate members' placement of
up to 300 fuel cell
cars and buses into fleets and to promote hydrogen fueling stations to
support them.


Hamburg, Germany is well placed to become one of the leading centres
for development of
products based on fuel cells.

Florida, USA hydrogen initiative with the production of eight hydrogen
powered shuttle
buses for use in the Orlando area

Ísland
Iceland's first hydrogen fueling station is already operating on the
outskirts of Reykjavík.
The hydrogen, which powers a small fleet of fuel cell buses, is
produced onsite from
electrolyzed tap water. Meanwhile the recently formed Icelandic New
Energy-a
consortium that includes automakers, Royal Dutch/Shell and the
Icelandic power
company Norsk Hydro-is planning to convert the rest of the island
nation to a hydrogen
system.

 

Here is a shortlist of the most advanced Fuel cell companies

THE DAIMLERCHRYSLER "F-Cell"
THE FORD FOCUS FCV
GENERAL MOTORS' Hy-wire and the HydroGen3
HONDAS FCX fuel
HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY FCEV
NISSANS
TOYOTA FCHV
VOLKSWAGEN'S Touran HyMotion

There is a well developed program that has been ongoing for more than a
decade and
there are several places in the world who are already playing an
important part in utilizing
these cars


California, USA
California Fuel Cell Partnership is to facilitate members' placement of
up to 300 fuel cell
cars and buses into fleets and to promote hydrogen fueling stations to
support them.


Hamburg, Germany is well placed to become one of the leading centres
for development of
products based on fuel cells.

Florida, USA hydrogen initiative with the production of eight hydrogen
powered shuttle
buses for use in the Orlando area

Ísland
Icelands first hydrogen fueling station is already operating on the
outskirts of Reykjavík.
The hydrogen, which powers a small fleet of fuel cell buses, is
produced onsite from
electrolyzed tap water. Meanwhile the recently formed Icelandic New
Energy-a
consortium that includes automakers, Royal Dutch/Shell and the
Icelandic power
company Norsk Hydro-is planning to convert the rest of the island
nation to a hydrogen
system.

 

More waste than net energy output.

(since net energy output is less than zero...)

If practical fusion power DID exist, there would still be waste; the
reactor vessel itself becomes radioactive over time, due to neutron
emission. Even if you come up with practical aneutronic fusion,
you'll still get some waste, though far less.

 

And neutrons. Don't forget the neutrons. And of course a lot
of the energy is in the form of gamma rays.

 

Because they are too saddled with pension and health care obligations
thanks to Organized Labor. <<

The nerve of those workers, wanting something so frivolous for all
those years of sweat.

 

The whole idea of hybrids is stupid. Just make cars smaller and leave out all the useless crap. Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives 250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance. <<

Detroit's not going to be building anything pretty soon, but Honda or
Toyota might build something like that. I wish I could say VW too, but
they may be going the way of Detroit.

 

The whole idea of hybrids is stupid.

After a few years a majority of cars will be either fuel cell cars or
hybrids

That is basically what you do with fuel cell cars

It is highly likely that Detroit will miss out on this development
at least initially

If they would want to do anything like this it would mean either hybrid
or a fuel cell or both

With fuel cells you have a lot less moving parts

What you get is more space in the car

You get a lighter car

You get a car that lasts longer

You get a car with a lot less maintenance

Fuel cells cars and hybrids are no longer just a dream they are a real
alternative

Problem is there is not very much production capacity yet

 

wrote in @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

Detroit won't make that kind of vehicle because there's no profit in it.

Hybrids are simply not a cost-effective alternative. They might save a
barrel or two of imported oil, but they are certainly not less expensive
to run.

 

The nerve of those workers, expecting current workers to support them
in their retirement instead of saving their own money for the purpose
and supporting themselves.

 

Hard to say what is right. I always felt that auto workers were overpaid
but then maybe that's what makes America so great. I just do not understand
why you do not have a big fat tariff on all the goods flooding your car lots
and store shelves. Everyone else seems to. I know that you have to mortgage
your wife to be able to afford anything but a Holden in Aus. (And I am not
shitting on Aus) And the Japanese just do not buy your cars. So I lean
toward something like a tariff. If you had tariffs they could subsidize a
national health care plan then manufactures would not be faced with such
huge medical liabilities that don't end till the pensioner dies. (Tons of
cash.)

I am Canadian and we run an enormous trade surplus with the US. Thank
you. I am not so stupid as not to realize that to a great extent our
prosperity depends on your prosperity. That is not to say you are giving us
anything. You are doing the buying and if you could get a better deal from
Mexico (or wherever) you would be buying there. You are not stupid. I do
have to say, though, that you are the great economic engine that seems to
keep everything going round and round.

My biggest gripe with "the world as it's set up" (O: (O: is that the
municipal, provincial, federal and unionized workers all seem to have it
made. While the rest of society has to content itself with jobs that pay
less and have no pensions or benefits. (By the way I am retired military so
I fit in the first group. [have it made]) They (the second group) often need
to be just as qualified, often more, and they work just as hard and more
often they have to work as long as they breath.

Anyway that's my two cents.

 

God Bless the Unions, otherwise we would all be making what the Illegal
Immigrants are making and the cost of living would still be the same !! The
Unions brought up wages all across the country, both union and non-union
companies !!!!

 

God Bless the Unions, otherwise we would all be making what the Illegal

The unions have done a lot for their members in the past

They need to learn a bit about the present

It is very easy to fight for higher wages when there is a need for
workers

When companies set up factories outside the country the unions have a
very little say in it

When you can set up a factory with people who cost a fraction of the
union members it is hard to motivate the owners to continue with the
current one

What happens is that the current factory gets neglected, the current
workers more or less stay the same, the benefits do not go up,
eventually the factory will close down

Nothing new happens, the owners are working hard abroad setting up new
factories and the discussions with the unions loose most of their
meanings

The unions have very little incentive to make changes, they want status
quo or more

Status quo means going backwards

More means the owners close the factory down faster

Inevitably the poorer countries need to raise their level of standard
and they need their unions to better the standard of living for their
members - if they have unions and members

So one of the options for the Unions in the USA is to organize unions
in the factories in the countries outside the USA

 

top posting corrected by snipping entire post...

Yes, and now after having helped the American worker to gain
reasonable work hours and wages, they are now killing the American
worker's jobs by driving companies out of business. Good thing we
have unions to steal, I mean tax, our hard earned money.

 

It really depends how you define reasonable wages. In the cost of
building a new car, approx 30% is for raw materials and 70% is labor
costs and health insurnace alone adds about 1500 dollars to the price of
each new car from GM. The bubble is bursting and time to pay the piper
and get runaway costs under control.

 

OK.......if raw materials is 30% and Labor is 70%, I guess all other costs
of doing business is free....right?
What a loon...........

Dave

 

"I guess all other costs of doing business is free....right? "

*lol* There would appear to be many costs of production not accounted
for in that oversimplified formula!

 

It really depends how you define reasonable wages. In the cost of

100% for development, management and profits
On top of everything add marketing at least 200%


300 raw materials
700 labor
1.000 development, management and profits
4.000 marketing and sales
-----------
6.000

The more expensive the car the more is the relative cost of marketing
and profits


500 raw materials
1.000 labor
4.500 development, management and profits
14.000 marketing and sales