How's the PT-Cruiser??

Only on paper because of some weasel in Washongton changing the
definition. Mexico is a third world country and is NOT even
close to what we have here in the U.S. To call is equivalent is
just plain nuts.

 

Hey - least they tried. They should do well once they figure it
out, as their F1 cars are very very nice.

 

I'd think that european/U.S./Canadian/Japanese engineering would be
preferred over Chinese or Mexican. Last I heard, Japan and Germany
were still making excellent steel. China - not so much. Probably
need 50 years to get to where Germany is today, in fact - there's
just such a gap in technology and expertiese.

 

Naw, just the race car has to be rear wheel drive. Ford runs the
Taurus, Chevy runs the Monte Carlo, and Dodge runs the Intrepid.

All of them are fwd on the road. In fact all of the race cars are the
same body spec.!! They have to fit common templates for everything
except (and I may miss something here so please add further info, don't
flame for incompleteness) for: the nose (grill, headlight shape,
valance), the "quarter" window, and the rear windshield (this may not be
true). Everything else that makes them look like the road car is done
with stickers!!

Dan

 

"Canadian" made cars are considered "domestic" because there used to be
a document called the "autopact".

It said that for every vehicle that the US manufacturers sold in Canada,
they had to make one in Canada. So, some models were made in Canada and
shipped to the US as domestics and some were made in the US and sold in
Canada as domestics, as long as there were as many or more made in
Canada as sold in Canada, they were duty-free. For quite a while, they
made more in Canada, because they were cheaper and the quality was
better. This all disappeared with the FTA and the NAFTA, however, and
our industry is drying up faster than yours.


Dan

 

I did a search of 60 minutes transcripts going back at least for the last 15
years ago and could not find any reference to a payola type scandal. In fact 60
minutes didn't even mention consumer reports between 1993 and 1999. There was
lots of mentions (1999, 2002) of the Isuzu and Suzuki lawsuit against Consumer
reports, however. (The ninth circus later did rule in favor of Suzuki and the
Supreme Court declined to take up Consumer Union's final appeal late last year.)

 

Read carefully. "CAR FOR CAR, MORE DOLLARS STAY IN THE USA" when it's
a domestic brand. You're arguing with that?

That's the largest per-unit cost, yes, although the cost for worker
and retiree health insurance rivals it nicely. Let's not forget that
raw materials are not cheap, either, and finished components are quite
expensive. You're not bringing much to the United State's economy in
a "trans-Plant" auto factory if you ship completed subsystems overseas
to be screwed together in Butthole, Arkansas by a seven-fifty-an-hour
bubba. If you think that Honda building their cars in the USA puts
them on equal footing with Chevrolet, you don't read much. Not to
diminish the fact that it's an improvement over their building their
vehicles entirely overseas at all. But the Chevy factory next door is
retaining more dollars per unit revenue in the USA than Honda is,
plain and simple.

I'm much more concerned about the overall cost, including labor but
also including costs for development, engineering, testing, assembly,
advertising, accounting, certification, transportation, worker and
retiree benefits, etc., etc. If you think that the auto assembly
plant is the most important part of the cost, you're not very closely
associated with the industry, or don't understand it well.

Uh, that gets back to the total cost thing. You see, you DO agree
with me.

Agreed. Tentatively. See below.

What matters most is where the TOTAL revenue goes. You know, if you
read my original post carefully, you wouldn't find much reason to
argue with me.

And by the way, countries with living standards comparable to the USA
are few and far in between. Remember, we're a superpower because of
our economy.

They do, and will continue to do so. The plants in China are by and
large intended to build vehicles for the market in that country.

And you'll note that I said my well-being depends pretty heavily on
the US auto industry, and I don't take lightly to things that threaten
that business.

I won't disagree with you on this point until I understand better what
you're asking government to do. I think a few well-crafted laws could
help. I'm not holding my breath, though, well-crafted laws are
exceedingly rare.

I think it amounts to this: the American worker's gotta make his case
that he's the best labor value going, regardless of the price premium.
He's gotta make continual improvements in order to justify his higher
pay. And he's gotta stop acting like you're talking: that he's
entitled to work.

On the other hand, he needs to be protected from foreign countries
dumping cheap labor on the market, which is what's happening with
offshoring. Dumping: We didn't tolerate it for cars, we shouldn't
tolerate it for labor.

--Geoff

 

Of course he'd be wrong Geoff and you're always right. Cruise back through
most of your posts and you basically call everyone a liar and expect
everyone to believe your theory or statements.

Silly me. I shouldn't doubt the "World According to Geoff".

========

 

Never been there, have you? Been watching too many old John Wayne
movies? My guess is you live nearer the Canadian border than the Mexican
one. Yeah, Mexico has problems, but the assembly lines down there have
a a reputation for turning out cars with better build quality than the
ones in Canada.

 

Wrong. Dodge runs the "Intrepid" in Nextel Cup, Ford the "Taurus," and
Chevrolet the "Monte Carlo." Not a single one of those is rear-drive in
production, and Cup cars don't use any production car parts except a few
selected body panels. The chassis are tube-type, the engines built by
the teams from components supplied by the manufacturers (heads, blocks)
and others (cranks, rods, pistons, everything else). Transmissions are
Jerichos, and the rear ends are third-party built copies of the Ford 9".
Yota is going to campaign a "Camry."

 

I'm not aware of any such a reputation *per se*. The comparison is
difficult because as far as I'm aware, the same models for the same
markets have generally not been built in both places. AA-bodies for the US
and Canadian market, for instance, were built in the US and Mexico.
LH-bodies for the US and Canadian market were built in Canada. What models
have been built for the US market both in Canada and in Mexico at the same
time?

My own experience with Mexican-built Chrysler products has been uniformly
very good, but my sense is the Canadian-built Chrysler products aren't of
significantly different build quality.

DS

 

You're right, you can't do a direct comparison except maybe for Ram
trucks and even then I don't know if the models overlap.

But the Mexico-assembled PT cruiser, for example, has had a stellar
reputation.

 

Back in 2001, the PT was awarded the best initial quality of any Chrysler.
Don't know who bestowed that honor but it was a news item on many of the PT
Cruiser sites back then. I know over 3 years later and 56,000 miles...the
fit and finish on mine is still excellent. Only real complaint I have/had
is the paint seems to chip easily. I have quite a few little knicks in the
front of mine.

 

Hey, lookie here! I've got a cheerleader!



--Geoff

 

I guess those power window motors in LH cars were mis-labled "Made in
China".


And like I said before, Toyota transmissions parts and full assemblies are
made in Virginia and NC. A very substantial part of the car and employees a
lot of people.

 

Read carefully. "CAR FOR CAR, MORE DOLLARS STAY IN THE USA" when it's
a domestic brand. You're arguing with that?

--Geoff

 

My 94 LHS and 99 300M were both made in Canada with parts from all over the
world. Unless you have actuals facts and figures, then yes I argue with
that unless we recently annexed Canada.

By the way, billions of foreign dollars are invested in the US (including
from countries we don't like). It is likely that Toyota has investments in
US firms. They just don't leave money in the bank earning 1% interest.

 

Seems to me that the quality of the PTCruiser should scare the hell out of
the US autoworker.

 

Probably not paint problem but the effect of having such a big painted
frontal area going down the road compared to a sedan. Trucks at least have
a big grill which won't show stone chips as badly.

 

Nah, let's take a shortcut here, Art. Just off the top of your head, how
many of the employees at Toyota WHQ in Japan buy their groceries in the
United States? How many of the 40,000 factory workers employed by Toyota of
Japan buy ice cream at the Dairy Queen in Troy, MI?

Compare and contrast with Ford Motor Company WHQ employees in Dearborn, MI.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you answer with rough
percentages. I'll give you + or - 10%, just to make it fair.

Read again carefully my original statement: more of the dollars you spend on
a domestic-brand car stay in the US than would for a comparably-priced car
from a foreign brand. More. Dollars. Stay. Here.

Or are you prepared to support the notion (with facts and figures, of
course) showing that Toyota contributes to the U.S. economy just as much as
Ford Motor Company? Since they're roughly the same size, I figure it's a
fair matching up between the two.

--Geoff