Gas Tank Fill Location All Wrong

Gee, considering that, in PA, gas taxes are about 17 cents more than in
NJ, and that, according to your figures, gas costs 26 more cents in PA
than NJ, I would say that gas taxes are relevant.

I never suggested that this has anything to do with the price
differences (or lack thereof) in gas between self-serve and full-service
in the same state.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Jeff

 

Mike's right. If they are able to sell gas at full-service stations for
the same price as at self-serve stations, then they're able to do that.
Considering that Mike can observe that the price is the same by driving
down the street, then I would say it is the same.

My guess is that they are able to move cars through the station faster
when a professional is filling the tanks than an amateur. Or they sell
more products, like motor oil when there is full service. Or some
combination of the two.

Jeff

 

The individual station owners pricing decisions, aren't mandated by anyone
other than themselves, if they price their gas too high, no mater the
reason, they will not sell gas. period. Their business decisions, and
their choice to diminish their own profit margin to keep from going out of
business, wouldn't play into this equation anywhere now would they?

Like I said the customer is paying the cost of the government mandated pump
monkeys. Without that cost the price could be EVEN LOWER.

 

If the only alternative is just paying them directly for doing nothing, then
absolutely yes. At least they are aerating the soil.

Gas pumping jobs are not a long term plan for anyone. Do you know
anyone who has made a career out of just pumping gas? It's a transition
job, the sort of boring low paying job that people get when there is
absolutely nothing else they can get, for whatever reason.

There's another difference Bill which your still ignoring. You aren't going
to find ex-cons waiting tables. Pumping gas is about the only place for
folks like this to get any kind of work. That isn't to say all gas station
attendants are ex-cons or that all ex-cons are gas station attendants. But
if you look at the work that the ex-cons get as their first job when out of
the pen, I think you will find a lot of them start out by pumping gas.

Yes. But, paying for the unemployed and homeless to eat food to
survive also appears to be mandated by the government. At least, most
of the soup-kitchen programs I've seen have government involvement
of some type, grant funding and suchlike. I don't know what you would
like but I'd rather pay a tenth of a penny more a gallon to a gas station
owner to
pay for make work pumping gas, than pay $1 a month more in taxes to
support yet more feed-the-homeless money grants.

For the last 200 years or so this country has been grappling with the
"poor" issue. What do we do with people who have no money and
have no skills they can use to make money? I am not talking about
people who have no money and don't want to work, or who are drunks
or meth addicts or some such. I'm talking about people who are
clean, drug free, want to work, but have no education and no skills.
This could be the 15 year old who dropped out of school when she
got pregnant and never went back, it could be the guy that dropped
out of high school because he got into a bad crowd, and did the
drug scene for a few years then finally decided he needed to quit
running around and try to make something of himself. The only answer
society has some up with is to put them into a soup kitchen line
somewhere. Make-work is about the only way to get them started
on building a resume. And if you let the government create the make
work projects, you get crap like 4 lane highways that go from nowhere
to nowhere out in the middle of nowhere.

Most paper carriers are not making a living off it. Why? Because you
have to have a car to carry the paper and you cannot make enough money
on a paper route to support the infrastructure needed to own a car.
Carrying
the paper only makes sense for people who already have some kind of income
that funds the car, the garage to keep it in, the insurance, the car
payments,
etc. and the paper route is just their beer money.

You can't send packages through e-mail. And in some places they
have contracted with private carriers - mainly rural routes. In some other
places where they tried contracting they found the contractor cost more.
There's a lot of data about this on the web, why use this weak example?
In any case, per law, the USPS must break even so all those postal
worker make-workers are living off voluntary purchases by consumers.

Bill you made your point that if gas pumping wern't mandated in NJ or OR
that it would disappear as a job. But what you haven't considered is what
are the side effects of this kind of job disappearing? I'll tell you - it
is a higher
rate of unemployment among the least employable members of the society.
Unless the society is willing to simply let unemployed people starve to
death,
those people will still be pulling money out of our pockets - but instead of
through a more efficiently-run private-industry gas-pumping make-work gig,
it will be some government handout program that will merely encourage
them to stay unemployable.

Now, granted, this is small potatoes. I doubt the number of gas station
attendant jobs out there is large enough to make any significant difference
in any of the numbers that can be measured. That is why when studies
have been done on gas pricing they found no measurable difference between
self-serve and non-self-serve states. That doesen't mean there is no
difference, just that it's so small that it's not measurable. So you could
maybe argue that getting rid of those jobs by allowing self-service wouldn't
make a measurable addition to the unemployment lines as well. But, once
more, just because it's small, doesen't mean it wouldn't exist. If NJ or OR
were
to allow self-service there would be slightly more unemployed people out
there in those states for those state governments to deal with. And if the
rest of the country were to make self-service illegal, then there would be
slightly fewer unemployed people in those states as well.

For the last 50 years or so there has arguably been a trend in society to
elimate those "unnecessary" jobs and replace them with automation.
Everything
from telephone operators to technical support people to gas station
attendants.
This has supposedly saved us consumers money. But in reality it's saved
big business money. The consumer merely ends up with a slightly lower
standard of living, and no real price savings. Sure, the consumer isn't
paying
for the milkman anymore, they get milk at the grocery store now. But in
exchange the milk isn't packed in glass anymore and so it doesen't taste
as good, and it's still costing $3 a gallon or so. The laundryman doesen't
come around anymore and get your shirts and dry cleaning. It is just a few
more
minutes of time the consumer has to spend doing things for themselves now,
instead of having someone else do it for them.

In short, the big companies have been pulling the pants down on the American
consumer for the last 50 years but they have been doing it so gradually that
people don't realize today that they are walking around with their asses
hanging
out, instead they just never feel like they have enough time anymore. Well,
the American consumer seems to be happy enough I guess - they are just
saying "screw me more, screw me more" Just makes me wonder why the
spending power of the American wage earner has gone down so much. Think
there's a connection? Nahhhh!

Ted

 

Correct, because it's recognized by just about everyone with a brain that
if you start allowing people to pump their own gas, that the gas station
owners
will simply put lower prices on the self serve pumps and within a very
short order, every gas station will be self serve and there will be no
attendants
left.

This is in reality a discussion about whether you want to have the job of
gas station attendent to exist in the job market or not. Either you do or
you don't. There is no such thing as a state that has a significant number
of
gas station attendant jobs which also allows self-serve.

Ted

 

Perhaps you don't seem to understand what I am saying. I have said we
need to have these minimum wage jobs as an alternative to just giving people
money through programs like WIC or whatever politically correct term
it is called now. The concept of a living wage for these jobs is completly
tangental. For starters, the second you raise the rates of these jobs to
a living wage, you will halt the progression of people OUT of these jobs
and into better paying ones - as a result, the unemployed people who
have no job skills and who you want to move off the street and into
the workforce, will find their way blocked by the people in these
no-longer-mininum-wage jobs who now aren't leaving them to get a better
job. So you wind up right back where you started, with no avenue
available to get people off the dole.

Simple. Those other states have a slightly higher number of unemployed
people who aren't qualified to do anything other than pump gas. As to
what YOUR state does with those people, I have no clue. Perhaps it
makes you feel good to think that YOUR state isn't wasting tax dollars
feeding those people and is just letting them starve. But I would bet money
that YOUR state is, in fact, NOT doing this, and instead, is in fact taking
some of your tax money and giving it to these unemployed people in
exchange for merely being unemployed. Either that or more of these
unemployed people are resorting to theft and suchlike to get money to
eat - which also raises societies costs, costs that you pay every time
you purchase any product.

Did you miss the statement

"I can drive 20 minutes north into Washington State.
And the fuel prices there are more expensive."

Apparently, you did.

I also find it instructive to examine where places like Home Depot and IKEA
are. They aren't on the North side of the Glenn Jackson Bridge in
Washington.
They are on the SOUTH side of the bridge in Oregon. And all of those
stores, IKEA, Home Depot, Best Buy and the rest of that lot are -enormous-
far, far larger than needed to supply the Oregon residents. That is because
the Washingtonians who you seem to think are so pleased with their superior
tax system are all coming over to Oregon to buy their stuff. And I won't
even
start in with the gigantic number of used car lots that Washington residents
frequent. Sure they have to pay a tariff if they register it - but it's
lower than
the sales tax. And should I mention the number of Washington residents who
illegally register vehicles in Oregon and wear Oregon plates? A story that
has been repeated several times in the newspaper with lots of documentation?

Oh yes, Washington residents are very pleased with their system.

It is painfully obvious you have absolutely no clue about how money flows in
the economy and how costs are passed along. Your ignorance is embarassing.

Ted

 

A dumbed-down site for people who don't understand how
their vehicle works.

I don't know about your car but on both of my Chrysler vans,
the evap line comes off the top of the fuel tank, where the
access to the fuel pump is. The line is run to the front of the car
where the charcoal canister is along with the various vacuum
valves that control it. Part of the line is run HIGHER than the
fuel filler opening on the side of the van. So fail to see exactly
how topping off will make the fuel level in the evap line rise
above the level of the gas cap.

Furthermore, the entire evap system is sealed - and the
evap recovery system vents into the intake manifold. I
highly doubt any liquid gas that gets into the system is
going to NOT be burned in the intake manifold.

Except that when Sweden studied that supposition, they found that
there was no measuring error in gas dispensing when topping off UNLESS
there was splashback from the gas filler pipe. See here:

http://www.nwml.gov.uk/Docs/Legislation/NMS Programme reports/Report vapour recovery.pdf

In other words, if you buy a gallon of fuel unless your topping off
causes spashback, the amount of gas that is obtained by the station
from recovering your vapors is not enough to reduce that gallon by
any measurable amount.

In any case the only time I've been topped off in Oregon is when
going to a gas station that only takes cash (ie: Arco) and the pump
stops at something like $19.86 and the station attendant wants to
make it an even $20 so they don't have to make change. And I
don't generally buy gas from those stations, I buy from stations
where I can use plastic, and I've never been topped off at one of
those.

The real concern, as I ALREADY MENTIONED is morons
being so agressive about topping off that they cause splashback.
And, if you do the research you will find out that the biggest
concern about splashback is the fear that the gas station evap.
system will suck liquid fuel back into the vapor recovery system
at the gas station, causing it damage. It's pretty clear that the
FUD about damaging vehicle vapor recovery systems as a
result of topping off is just that - FUD. The gas station owners
know that just asking people to refrain from topping off because
it might hurt the station equipment isn't going to be an appeal that
will get any traction. So instead they invented this bogyman
that if you top off your going to damage your car, so don't do it,
to appeal to people's self-interest.

Quite obviously, splashback causes a spill, and the pollution from
the gas evaporating from the spill is what matters, that and any
pollution that might be caused by a gas station evap recovery
system that had been damaged by sucking liquid gas - from
splashback.

Ted

 

If they were able to get other jobs that paid more they would. They can't,
for whatever reason.

Not a lot of that in OR. Here, there is no single type that predominates,
and there's just as many women as men pumping gas, everyone of all
ages and colors.

Men and women. And judging from the turnover, in OR the average
attendant lasts in that job about 2 months maximum.

Ted

 

Yup, Washington can't run their full time government on less money as
Oregon is able to do. They need all the extra money for all their social
programs that cover the unemployed people running around because there
are no jobs for those people.

You might consider that there's only 4 major road entry points into OR. I5
at
the north end, I5 at the South end, I205, and I84.

There's plenty of competent OR gas stations at the northern I5 and I205, you
are full of baloney if you claim their aren't there.

I84 and I5 on the south end are both entry points in the middle of nowhere.
Think about the type of people who choose to live in the little podunk
border towns at those entry points. Do you really think many of them are
competent at anything? If they were, they would be on one of the farms in
the area.

Loser you are then. All gas caps have clutches in them so all that whoever
has to do when putting the cap back on is just keep tightening the cap until
the clutch slips, and when it does it makes a loud, audible racket clearly
heard
inside the vehicle. If your locking cap doesen't then they aren't the right
kind for your car, unless your driving something made back in 1965. If they
are the right cap then your a fool if you drive off without hearing that
noise.

Ted

 

Well of course we also have zone pricing but it's limited to the lower
volume
stations. I live within 2 miles of a high volume Astro station at a major
intersection - it's prices are always within a few cents of the other high
volume
stations in the greater metro area. I can count probably about 10 stations
like this that are within a mile of the places that I normally drive by when
commuting. However, all other stations have much higher prices. There's
a total of 3 stations I pass by when going to I84 (part of my commute) that
are low-volume. One of these is a cash-only place and because of that they
are able to stay within 2 cents higher than the high volume stations. The
other 2 are
at least 10 cents sometimes higher than any of the high volume stations, one
time I saw one at 20 cents higher. One of those was playing the "cash
discount" game where they advertised a lower price that was cash-only,
and the higher credit card price was in a sign that was almost completely
obscured by bushes, until the AG threatened to sue them unless they
knocked it off - now they just have 1 price. Although even doing this
their cash-only price was still higher than that of a high volume station
1/2 mile away.

In other areas of the metro area the same thing abounds. You can
tell the low volume stations by the few number of pumps and the
fewer number of cars that are always in them. I don't exactly know
why anyone goes to them - but some do. A few of these stations
do vehicle repair and obviously they make their living doing that, not
selling gas. Some of the others have extensive beer refrigerators and
I assume make their money selling that.

But in general, the high volume stations are all within 2-3 cents of each
other and this is true just about every day of the year, no matter where
the stations are located. But for every one of those stations, there's
at least 5 more than are low volume stations which usually are no less
than 10-15 cents a gallon higher.

Ted

 

You'd think, but I see both pumped and self serve at the same price. They
did not lower the self serve price, they charge you the same as the station
that pumps. I see it every day. Your theory is correct, but the practice is
something different.

 

IT IS NOT GOVERNEMENT MANDATED!!!!
WE VOTED TO KEEP IT THAT WAY!!!
we do not want to pump our own gas, and told the self serve people that in a
statewide vote years ago when they tried to cram self serve down our
throats!!!

 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Good service? Costumer loyalty? Going to a neighborhood store?

Jeff

 

Really?

I never said that one pays more for gas in stations where the attendants
pump the gas.

Jeff

 

the average pay for a gas station attendent in my area is $10/hr to start.

yes they are.

yes, i do

no it is not
and neither is gas station attendends.

you better look again, cause you will not find any ex-convicts pumping gas
here either.
station owners will not hire a thief to handle large amounts of cash.

once again. not in jersey


once again, you are wrong. they are not mandated by government
we voted, and said no self serve. it is a choice of the people, not a choice
of the government

wow!! you are wrong on almost everything ain't you??
you better not tell the paper delivery people around here they can not make
a living by delivering papers.

of the 3 major paper delivery people in this town ,2 drive brand new cars,
(less than 3 months old) that the route has paid for, and the third drives a
1 year old car that the route paid for.

i hope your mail man don't see this. all your mail will start being
delivered to your garbage can

 

Someone posted that they are required 8 hours of training before they
start work. 8 hours of training to get 2 months of work from someone?
That's a solution that only a government mandate could support.

I have some questions: Who does the training? Is it the station owner,
or are these in classrooms that are run by 3rd party companies? Is the
pay of the trainer paid directly by the station, or is it from a state fund?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Ted - right there is the difference between you and me.

You see someone sitting on their ass and think that the government must
do something to help that person. I see someone sitting on their ass
and think that that person better figure something to do there, or if
there are no opportunities there, they need to freakin' move somewhere
where there are jobs and/or get some freakin' schooling and make
themselves employable. Heck - get a freakin' job flippin' burgers. Do
*something* or - yes - starve. 'cause if you just keep sitting on your
ass waiting for the government to come along and solve your problem, you
might just starve to death. Did I miss anything?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Why not let the market drive it. Leave the station owner free to have
either self-serve or not, or a combination. Then the people can decide
by who they do business with, and a smart owner will go with the
decision of the market place. Plus there would still be the free choice
possibility for either rather than a one-size fits all. IOW - maybe it
shouldn't have been voted on in the first place. Let the market decide,
and leave the choice of either for everyone.

Who could possibly be unhappy with having a choice?????? Legitimate
question - please answer it.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

But that's not what I should base my decision on about whether to have a
postal service or not, is it.

Let's face it - the pony express was started by the gov't out of
necessity with no other infrastructure to support private delivery
service - once a gov't program starts, it's hard to get rid of. It may
sound like I'm trying to be funny or clever by saying that, but really
that's why we have a postal service today. If we were starting over
today, there would be no need for it. It would be handled by private
enterprise.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

like i said, we had the choice, and chose to have attendants. why let
someone else tell us we have to pump our own gas??