freon

Sarge,

Everything you said is true the EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
replacement along with several others see link
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/mvacs.html

Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources, which
highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems.
In the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just
really does not have any practical knowledge. Also, where I live it is
illegal to buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can
lose everything. Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten
up the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
legally. As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting
man he is not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong could
ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and they
list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC do it
yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail. Recently I was at
a local land fill where people just toss their AC units refrigerators into a
box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the bin, 55x$10k is a lot of
money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two days
later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.

People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get caught
then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National Organizations
which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
maintenance and repair. It is easy to read something and interpret some
information that is only 1/3 of the equation practical knowledge is the
other 2/3 of the equation.
---
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply

 

Maybe I missed something in what was being said there, but apparently in
my state, there are absolutely no licensing requirements for 134A.[/QUOTE]

Entirely possible.
In Wisconsin and I suspect a few other states with draconian laws
one needs a state license in order to purchase R-134a or R-12.
The selling vendor (NAPA CarQuest, etc) has to have a copy of the
license on file in case the state checks.
I can go to Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and buy R134a right off
the shelf at Walmart.
The Wisconsin license amounts to nothing more than another tax on
the business owner.

It is. But since there are exceptions, the OP is best served
making himself familiar with whatever requirements there are in
-his- state.

I remember back when R-12, R-22 and R-134a were advertised in the
circulars in the Sunday paper, there were a few states listed as
"sales are restricted," Wisconsin and (IIRC) Florida were at
least two, and since Kalifornia never saw a repressive law it
didn't like, it is entirely possible that they also require a
license.

 

Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
error.

 

*grabs a bowl of popcorn and sits down to watch the Maxpower Parade of
Ignorance*

 

I forgot what his date of birth is but that would be it

 

He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
replacement along with several others see link
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/mvacs.html

Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources, which
highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems. In
the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really
does not have any practical knowledge. Also, where I live it is illegal to
buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can lose
everything. Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten up
the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
legally.

As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting man he is
not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong could
ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and they
list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC do it
yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail.

Recently I was at a local land fill where people just toss their AC units
refrigerators into a box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the bin, 55x
$10k is a lot of
money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two days
later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.

People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get caught
then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National Organizations
which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
maintenance and repair.

It is easy to read something and interpret some information that is only 1/3
of the equation practical knowledge is the other 2/3 of the equation.

--
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply

 

I never *ever* disputed this.

You have no idea how much practical knowledge I have.

 

Not knowledge, its all ego.

 

In other words, you got nothing.

 

Daniel never made any sort of claim that Freeze 12 wasn't on the
SNAP list.
If you can bring up a post of his to the contrary, I'd love to
see it.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
Given all the classes you claim to have attended, I find it
surprising that it hasn't occurred to you that the EPA is in the
business of enforcing environmental policy, not how to repair an
automobile.

Well, I've known him for at least eight years, and I disagree.

Since R-12 isn't illegal and there is none being manufactured in
the United States and thusly, your state, the question is; how do
the wholesalers get R-12 into your state for legitimate re-sale
without "losing everything?"

Yes, I believe I'd already cited examples to that effect in my
reply to Bill Putney.

You'd lose that bet.

ISTR reading this somewhere else...

Then you should appreciate Daniel's comments since he has been
citing chapter and verse the fact that there is no such thing as
a "drop in replacement" for R-12.

You -do- realize that this is usenet, don't you?
I suppose somewhere in the future there will be three dimensional
computer monitors and forums such as this will allow a
realization of that other "2/3 of the equation."

 

Must be Sterns bitch enough said!

 

Hell I am in Ontario Canada and we cannot buy it here, yet I can cross
the border into Niagara Falls New York and buy it and even tell them
at customs I have it and they don't give me a problem.

Worst part about it all is that I can walk into any electronics supply
house and buy it and many places like staples still sell it.

Go into a staples or some place that sells compressed air, if it
doesn't say environmentally friend then read the whole label chances
are its 134a, go to an electronics supply house, not radio shack,
though they might have it and look for some component cooler or freeze
spray, again its 134a.

 

LOL Bingo!!!

 

The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, but doing as you implicitly
suggest and charging it into an A/C system is foolhardy. Why? Because it's
not even close to being pure or dry. It doesn't have to be, for dusting
the Oreo crumbs out of your keyboard. It DOES have to be, for use in an
A/C system. Charging an A/C system with wet/impure refrigerant is a
sure-fire recipe for expensive system damage. After the filter-dryer is
saturated and can sequester no more moisture -- which is not at all
difficult; the dryer is not meant to handle more than tiny amounts of
residual moisture -- the remaining moisture reacts with the refrigerant at
high temperatures to form aggressive Hydrofluoric acid, which eats thin
aluminum voraciously (evaporator, condenser). Moisture also freezes in
TXVs and orifice tubes, causing a clog that reduces system performance to
near zero and sends head pressure skyrocketing. And finally, all the
impurities in duster-grade gas further reduce system performance as
noncondensibles.

Putting duster-grade R134a in an A/C system is *almost* as poor an idea as
charging an A/C system with camping fuel, for the same (wet/impure)
reason. The camping fuel idea is somewhat more knotheaded, for reasons
that have already been done to death in this forum.

DS (waiting for those two idiots to make vague and unsupported assertions)

 

It really gets me that it's illegal (in the U.S., at least) to vent R134
from a car's A/C system but there's no problem with venting it from those
'air' dusters and other products in which it's used as a propellant. From
what I understand, you can't buy R134 at all in Canada without a license
but those dusters. etc. that use it are OK for anyone to buy & use.

 

Oh brother. (rolls eyes)

 

It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper procedures
being followed -- to say nothing of accidental CFC releases -- in the
field.

True. Canada's auto A/C regulations are more restrictive than those of the
US. It's illegal in Canada, for instance, to charge an auto A/C system
with R12. If an R12 system needs to be evacuated to make a repair, it may
not legally be refilled with R12.

 

Your computer seems to have run out of comma's and apostrophe's.
Please visit your local grade school for a free re-fill.

Or; you -could- take the route where you don't look like such a
blow hard and answer the questions that I posed.

1) Show where Daniel Stern stated that Freeze-12 was not an
approved substitute for R-12.

2) Explain how wholesalers and/or retailers obtain supplies of
R-12 in your state and avoid "losing everything."

 

You can go hump your sock puppet now...

 

I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...

I didn't know that. See the last sentence in my previous paragraph.