freon

I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
with no such requirement.

Questions:
Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?

How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be
the r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans.
I don't want to replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges
will not work with the newer valves.

What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for
the can, and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system
thru the original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to
use R134 leak detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar
product to recharge the system.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


Tony

 

No problem. The EPA supplies a whole list of acceptable
alternative refrigerants at;
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
laws in your state.

There are restrictions on -any- substance introduced into a
mobile (automotive for highway use) air conditioning system.
Fill your AC system with Lime flavored Jello, it -still- falls
under the EPA rules, no exceptions.

All substitute refrigerants are required to use individually
unique service fittings, this helps eliminate cross contamination
during recovery and recycling. Had the rules been more
diligently followed over the last 15 years, the equipment
requirements for the people and businesses who legitimately
service automotive AC systems would be a whole lot less and the
costs to the consumer a whole lot lower.

I've never seen a leak detector, R-134a type or any other used to
recharge a system.
I think it's entirely reasonable to contact the refrigerant
manufacturers listed in the EPA SNAP list to see if they have
available adaptors to convert your R-12 manifold and gauge set to
use with their product.
If you live in the United States, be advised, it is illegal to
use hydrocarbon based refrigerants such as Envirosafe (ES-12a) in
any mobile air conditioning system.

Please don't contribute to making things worse than they already
are.

 

Tony,

There is a direct replacement for R12 (Freeze 12)however you still need a
license and be auto AC certified to work on the systems (Federal Law). You
still need to replace the dryer/accumulator, reclaimed the R12 and draw a
500 micron vacuum to get everything out, you do not have to change the AC
compressor. Then the system must be recharged with the correct amount along
with manufacturers amount of compressor oil. I am licensed in both
automotive and universal I used Freeze 12 on several older R12 systems with
good results. R12 is running (if you can find it) at $190.00 per 16oz. A
decent price for the job is around $250.00 on the east coast for all parts
and labor.
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Wrong. There is NO SUCH THING as legal "drop in" for R12.

Some other refrigerants or refrigerant blends are chemically and
physically directly compatible with R12 systems, but legally, Federally,
there is NO SUCH THING as a "drop in". Disregarding this law is very
shortsighted, for it screws up the supply of recycled R12 for everyone.
Every source of information on the topic -- with the possible exception of
shady sellers of non-approved refrigerants -- clearly spells this out.
EPA, MACS, IMACA, etc. A 15-second Google search will clearly demonstrate
it.

Bullshit.

Telling alarmist lies helps nobody unless you're trying to sell something,
in which case it only helps you. R12 is not hard to find, and is running
at between $400 and $450 for a 30-pound cylinder, which translates to $13
to $15 per pound...that is around one-fifteenth of the "$190 per 16oz" you
claim.

Don't believe me? Head over to eBay and see for yourself.

 

Why? Just use R12. Sure, it's more expensive than other compounds, but it
is what the system is designed to work with, you don't need that much of
it, and it's the least problematic choice for a system meant to take R12.

If you manage to cobble together such a device, you will do a great deal
of damage to your A/C system. You will also very likely injure yourself
severely. A/C service is dangerous and requires detailed knowledge of
exactly what and what *not* to do.

 

AC was not working when I purchased the car. PO was told Evap coil was
leaking. I can't get an AC shop to work on it this time of year, as
it wil require a labor intensive removal of the dash. The system must
be completely empty by now, so I do not feel I will be releasing freon
into the atmosphere. I want to determine exactly where the leak(s)
are. If it's the coil, I will get it repaired or replaced thru my
local ac shop. I'll do thr RR myself, then bring the car back to him
to have it properly, amd legally refilled.

This is why I want the proper adapter hose to get leak detector into
the system. I don't want to start pulling good working parts, only to
find out the leak is somewhere else.

Thanks again,

Tony

 

To correct your ignorance and you may want to click on the link go to the
technical link and read the EPA authorization on a direct replacement.

I was not talking about the stuff on EBAY most of it is crap and contains
contaminates along with being illegally imported from Mexico where it is
still made. If you consider EBAY as your guide buyer beware.

http://www.freeze12.com/


I am licensed and certified Universal and Automotive I show you mine if you
show mw yours.
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Another link for you.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/fittlist.html
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More to inform you

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/buying.html
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Some more reading to help you

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/unaccept.html

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To really help you

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/lists/unaccept.html

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The link provides the thread size and fitting type. There is a lot more
such as re labeling with proper color codes for the refrigerant type.
http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/fittlist.html
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Link says "Freeze 12 is EPA acceptable for mobile applications subject to
the use conditions applicable to vehicle air conditioning". What part of
the use conditions have you forgotten from the certification you claim to
have? What part of "Every single refrigerant requires unique service
fittings, appropriate hose materials and identification labels" is hard
for you to understand?

"Direct replacement" (or "drop-in") has a legal meaning: it means a
refrigerant, other than that for which a system was designed, that may
legally be installed into the system with no system changes. Legally,
Federally, there is NO refrigerant other than R12 that may legally be
introduced into an R12 A/C system without installing barrier hoses,
refrigerant-specific service fittings, and refrigerant retrofit callout
labels. None. Not your Freeze-12 stuff, not FRIGC, not any of the other
EPA acceptable refrigerants, and certainly none of the unacceptable ones.
Therefore, your assertion that Freeze-12 is a "direct replacement" is
simply incorrect.

There are enormous stockpiles of genuine, clean, uncontaminated, US-made
R12 from before the manufacturing ban. That's most of what's being sold on
eBay; US Customs is very good at catching Freon smugglers.

So am I. s.608 and s.609, bud. Not that s.609 (MVAC) means anything;
anyone with 15 minutes and $15 can take the open-book test online and get
a 609 card.

As far as your beloved Freeze-12: It's nothing but R134a with a proportion
of R142b added in as a crutch for oil miscibility. Its heat carrying
capacity is poorer than that of R134a, which in turn is poorer than R12.
There is no reason to mess with this ridiculous crap; a properly-done
R134a conversion will be more satisfactory and less expensive.

Always ready to spread misinformation and half-truths, as it seems.

 

: "I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a license
to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online with no such
requirement.

Questions:
Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?

How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be the
r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans. I don't want to
replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges will not work with the
newer valves.

What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for the can,
and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system thru the
original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to use R134 leak
detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar product to recharge
the system."


Tom, you must be referring to LA like in California and not LA the state of
Louisiana. R134 was designed as the replacement freon for R12. Never tried
Freeze12. Kits are sold to retrofit R12 cars with R134. Pressure and
temperature readings will be different for R12 and R134. There are gauge
sets out there that made for R134.

A retro kit will have the necessary fittings. See http://www.ackits.com/

R12 is still available for purchase with the right license. Cost is around
477 dollars for a 30 LB cylinder. It is no longer manufacture in the US.
Recycle R12 may be sold if you can locate it.

As far as the freon license for automobile work. The certification can be
taken online or by mail. It not that expensive. See
http://www.macsw.org/macs.asp?mfurl=certify.html It use to be an open book
test unlike the certification for working on appliances, residential and
commercial HVAC units or industrial chillers.

Sarge

 

Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

 

Actually, Daniel is correct on this one. Conversions from R-12 directly to
anything other than 134A are technically illegal, although it appears that
was an accidental consequence of the wording of some federal regs. Or at
least they used to be that way. HOWEVER, the legality of it is not really
relevant in my opinion. Coasty never said they were legal, and Dan just
basically changed the subject.

Here's what the OP should do. Go far away from here, and take this question
to aircondition.com forums. People over there just live for this question.
There really are many functional replacements for R12, however illegal to
convert. Each one has different pluses, but they all probably work okay. And
you can buy them, although you will have to get certified to do so. Becoming
certified is pretty easy. Actually it's real easy. Well, really, all they
want is the test fee.

 

I hear propane works really well.




JUST KIDDING GUYS!! *^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

That's not correct.

1) Conversions from R12 "directly" to ANYTHING (including R134a) are
illegal. _EACH AND EVERY_ approved refrigerant has its own fittings (which
must be *permanently* installed on a retrofitted system; removable
adaptors don't cut it), usage conditions such as barrier hoses for most of
them, and labelling requirements. There is NOTHING aside from R12 that can
legally be introduced into an unmodified R12 system.

2) There are lots of legally approved automotive refrigerants.

 

Thanks advice taken.

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