flexible fuel?

Hi...

Reading Chilton, which makes reference to "flexible" fuel, and
suggest different oils to use if burning it.

Never heard of flexible fuel... maybe just a different expression
usa<>canada? Possible they're referring to what we might
call gasohol? (which I do use)

Thanks, and take care.

Ken

 

Great way to misinform yourself. Chilton manuals -- like Haynes manuals --
are full of factual and procedural errors.

Yes. If you have a FFV (Flexible-Fuel Vehicle) you need to use engine oil
that is formulated for use in such engines.

The term refers to vehicles capable of running on up to 85% methanol
blended with gasoline (M85). There are many changes made to the vehicle's
engine, fuel system and engine management system to permit the use of this
highly corrosive fuel, which contains significantly less energy per unit
volume than gasoline. All vehicle components that come into contact with
fuel liquid or vapor must be made of significantly upgraded materials
compared to standard gasoline cars. This affects the fuel tank, fuel pump,
fuel lines, fuel filter, fuel injectors, fuel rail, evaporative emission
control canister, vacuum lines, fuel gauge sender, all system seals, all
engine upper seals, and other parts. There is a fuel specific-gravity
sensor that detects the proportion of gasoline vs. methanol and sends that
information to the engine control computer, which adjusts spark and fuel
curves to suit. There are internal engine materials differences, as well.

M85 is unavailable in most locations across North America.

No, gasohol contains up to 10% *ethanol*, which is different and
considerably less corrosive than methanol. Not the same thing at all.

If you have the choice to use plain gasoline or gasohol, and you use
gasohol, you are costing yourself money.

DS

 

Hi Daniel... (got it right this time

Thanks for the explanation; appreciate it.

Should it happen to interest you or anyone, the reasons behind
my preference for gasohol are several.

Being long retired, for six months of the year I go almost nowhere.
The bank, Doctor, and grocery store once makes a 2 mile trip
every week or two... so a tank lasts a very, very long time
I'm pretty well convinced that gasohol is much more stable than
plain gas. I also think it keeps fuel system components a little
cleaner. Right?

If the cost is entered into it, our price for gasohol is virtually
the same as gas. (I think government subsidized). And I needn't
add gas anti-freeze, so I save the cost of a dollar or two per
tankful.

Most important... I'd far, far sooner contribute to the work and
income of our farmers than add to the strife going on over oil.

Finally, even though ten percent is miniscule, a lot of 10%'s add up.
Better to burn up renewable resources than waste any at all of the
non-renewable stuff. Our great great grandkids might appreciate it

Thanks again, and take care.

Ken

 

Wrong. Gasohol is considerably *LESS* stable than plain gasoline, in
several ways. It has a shorter "shelf" life before it begins to
deteriorate. The deterioration takes place at a faster rate. And, there
are several situations in which the alcohol can fall out of solution with
the gasoline, at which point not only have you got that direct problem to
deal with, but you've got extremely hygroscopic (absorbs water) alcohol
doin' its thing in your fuel system.

That's grand, but because gasohol contains less energy per unit volume
than gasoline, you burn more of it to go any given distance. The effect
upon fuel economy is larger than would be predicted by calculations
showing that the energy content difference is approximately 3-1/2 percent.

You needn't do that anyhow.

DS

 

Not METHANOL but ETHANOL it's one of the reasons it's being promoted as a
"renewable" resource as it's made from corn and other "biomass" which
produces ETHANOL. Methanol comes from petroleum resources. Otherwise the
description is correct and only cars made for flex fuel can use it safely.
FWIW Ethanol is far less problematic than methanol.
Larry

 

No, Flexible-Fuel Vehicles are those which are specially prepared to run
on METHANOL blends.

Do some research and educate yourself before making an ass of yourself
with guesses and assumptions.

 

<snip other misinformed stuff>

Here:

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/na_efi_ffv.html (Be sure to read the story
linked at the bottom of the page)

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/fleettest/pdfs/sae_m85.pdf

http://www.ee.ualberta.ca/~sellat/methanol.html

There *are* Ethanol-fueled vehicles, lots of them, especially in Brazil.
But, the original poster asked about the "Flexible Fuel Vehicle" term in
the context of '90s Chrysler products, and that means Methanol.

 

I beg to disagree, sir. My guess is that FFV can refer both to E85 and M85
vehicles.

http://www.ethanol.org/e85.html

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/33058.pdf

http://www.ford.com/en/vehicles/specialtyVehicles/environmental/ethanol.htm

 

If your vehicle is not designed to burn flex fuel don't use it. It could
cause drivability problems, hard starts and can cause the check engine lite
to come on. Also those vehicles were designed differently to prevent
corrosion of the fuel system and the sensors to determine the amount of
methanol. And as Mr. lite Bulb Stern said, it does require a special oil in
the engine.

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Yes, it *can*, but in the case we're talking about in this thread
(mid-'90s Chrysler FFVs), the referent alcohol is *methanol*.

 

As a long time user of "gasohol" I am surprised at this statement. I
personally have been using Mohawk/Husky gasohol in Canada since the mid 1980s.
I have NEVER heard of, nor have i experienced this! I know of users of gasohol
in manitoba, saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia - and they have the
same comment. No such problem exists. I have spoken with colleagues In
Minnesota as well and they shrug their shoulders too: What problem??

Please state where you received such information. Documentation??

WE all seem to like the fact that gasohol absorbs water as in the winter we DO
NOT suffer from gas line "freezing" at about -25C and again at about -38C that
seems prevalent in ordinary gasoline. The vehicles start and run - burning the
gasoline-alcohol-water mixture as if there were NO water.

True, gasohol does contain less BTU per volume than gasoline, but in a 2 mile
trip the engine is not warm enough to burn gasoline efficiently and PLENTY of
unburned gasoline goes out the exhaust of cold gasoline powered vehicles. Half
way into the city I smell RAW gasoline coming from the exhaust of cars. You
cannot tell me they are running efficiently, nor can you tell me with any
degree of certainty that there polluting cars are burning "gasohol".

My wife's Volvo and my old Caravan/Voyager show no difference between gasoline
and gasohol in the winter while driving in the city. No difference. Period. My
son's 2002 dakota is the same - no difference in a Winnipeg winter either. The
engines simply do NOT get warm enough to be thermally efficient when doing
short (less than 10 km) stop-start trips in traffic going to school/work in
the morning.

Highway driving for over 50 miles shows a modest improvement in mpg when using
gasoline - and that is as you say because of more thermal energy in gasoline
than in alcohol or an alcohol-gasoline blend. Then of course you also have to
look at the "oxygenation" factor and which fuel generates more CO2, etc per km
or mile travelled. But then, on the highway we would be better off using a
diesel engine!

Dan PLEASE substantiate your statement: "And, there are several situations in
which the alcohol can fall out of solution with the gasoline, at which point
not only have you got that direct problem to deal with, but you've got
extremely hygroscopic (absorbs water) alcohol doin' its thing in your fuel
system." .... so that I can pass it on to both Mohawk and Husky oil production
staff, as well as to those North American automobile makers who say that
using "gasohol" in their vehicles is "fine" I am sure they could use the
benefit of an epiphany.

Depends where you live and how low you let your gas tank get before refilling.
Don't let it get below 1/4 full on the USA western prairie states (MN, ND) or
on the Canadian prairie provinces (MB,SK, AB) - otherwise you will get gas
line freeze up usually on some miserably cold day in traffic! I see it every
winter. Do you, Dan?? Not pleasant for the driver freezing his/her ass off.
:-(

To those Easterners who have absolutely NO idea what this experience is like -
come out west this winter and experience gas line freezing. Oh yes, before you
do, make sure you install a "block heater" - otherwise your vehicle won't
start unless you have synthetic oil with 5W- or 0W- designation. Seen it here
too

Ken
Winnipeg, Manitoba, canada

 

Come on Dan. We know of your expertise. However, don't become vulgar too.

I bet MY dad is bigger than YOUR dad. So there!

Please put me in YOUR "plonk" bin, but everyone else will read my humble
scribblings while you put your head in:

a) the sand, or
b) a place where the sun don't shine.

Please be polite. It costs you nothing.

Ken
Winnipeg, Canada

 

Not METHANOL but ETHANOL

OP never said it's mid-90s Chrysler FFV... it was you uourself who brought
up the mid-90s Chrysler FFV example

Peter

 

Hi... It IS a mid-90's Chrysler (94 LHS).

First ever lifetime non GM vehicle... had never even heard of FFV,
but saw in the book the need for special oils with one. Wondered if
Chrysler referred to gasohol as an ffv.

Think I understand now, all clear as it gets

Thanks everyone.

Ken

 

Ken Pisichko wrote:

Hi...

Seeing I was the OP, I just can't resist...

Ken
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
(Portage and the perimeter)

 

Flex fuel and gasohol are 2 different fuels, E85 is 85% ethonal15% gasoline.
Gasohol is 90% gasoline 10 grain alcohol from corn

 

it comes fom his ego not his smarts

 

Sez the guy who posted;

You're huffing too much brake cleaner there Darryl.

 

I was wondering when Dan's Bitch was gonna step in!!

 

Your reading disability is regrettable.