Engines that are prone to sludge

This is a list from Amsoil of engines prone to sludge.

 

Interesting info. - thanks for posting it. That Chrysler TSB must be
only for the trucks because it doesn't show up in my alldata
subscription on the '99 Concorde with 2.7L that I have (which
incidentally is over 200k miles with no problems - I change the oil and
filter every 3000-3500 miles and keep 8 oz. of Marvel Mystery Oil in the
crankcase; other people use synthetic, which I don't - I have my
reasons; and it is my 80 mile-per-day daily driver, which I think also
helps prevent sludge).

Curious that they don't list the 2.7L thru 2004 (the year LH car
production stopped). There were some design changes in mid production
that supposedly addressed the sludging, so maybe they are assuming that
that fixed the problems - would have to check the LH car forums on the
2.7L failure posts by owners to see if the failures were heavily
concentrated in the earlier production years. Evidence that something
has worked is that they use the 2.7 heavily in the later platforms, and
I haven't heard of failures in those (when they fail, it's generally in
the range of 60k to 80k miles), plus it would be extremely foolish of
them to start a whole new platform if it were not truly fixed.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

as long as its not a Toyota 3.0 built from 97 to 02. and Toyota blames the
customers for that one.

 

The 7500 mile interval is not correct. In 2004 Toyota has lowered that
interval down to 5000 for ALL Toyota/Lexus engines while GM and Honda
pushed it to 12,000 miles during this period.

IIRC Audi has 10,000 mile intervals, BMW 15,000 miles, Porsche and
Mercedes 20,000 miles, but these use synthetic oil meeting strict
specifications (VW 502.00/505.01, BMW LL01/04, MB 229.5/229.51).

Therefore I think the sludge tendency is still there with all new
Toyota/Lexus engines, that's why you have to change oil at 5000
miles.

http://www.boston.com/cars/news/articles/2007/04/01/carmakers_increase_oil_change_intervals/

 

The 7500 mile interval is not correct. In 2004 Toyota has lowered that
interval down to 5000 for ALL Toyota/Lexus engines while GM and Honda
pushed it to 12,000 miles during this period.

When I started to buy a Toyota, I asked about that sludging condition. They
indeed
recommended a shorter than original change interval, and told me that in
every case
that there had been a problem, the owner had not maintained the recommended
interval.

BUT, there were also some issues with the PCV system that were discussed on
this
newsgroup that may have also influenced the sludging. IIRC, they had
reduced the
ventilation action and that could well influence oil sludging.

I believe that our 2007 has a longer change interval than 5000 miles, but I
never let it
go so long anyway.

 

The following is JMHO!
NORMAL driving is considered driving on the highway for an extended period
of time. OK what percentage of drivers have commutes like that especially
with the price of gas today? ;-)
This is great for an engine to operate at normal operating temperature to
help burn off any moisture in the oil and maybe any carbon in the engine.
These engines can last a very long life (100s of 1,000s of miles) and the
oil does not get dirty too fast generally!
I have seen many different engines live long lives this way, foreign and
domestic. Of course there are some engines that just designed to fail after
XXX miles no matter how they are driven. <g>

Most vehicles are NOT driven this way but are driven in the city. The
engines use more gas, create more carbon and the temperatures are usually
colder than normal adding condensation/debris to the oil.
These engines require more frequent oil changes!
I have even seen VW engines get sick prematurely. :-(
--
later,
(One out of many daves)


snip

 

I don't buy that - I'd take that with a grain of salt. People make that
kind of statement often based on very little more than thin air. There
is no question that some engines are way less tolerant of stretched out
maintenance than others. Other factors come into play, like if the
vehicle sees a lot of short-trip and/or stop and go driving vs. mostly
highway commutes. IOW - with certain engines, long oil change intervals
may not do it in if most of its driving is daily highway commutes, but
give it OK change intervals, and do mostly short-trip/stop-and-go, and
it will likely fail. Combine longer change intervals with short trip
and stop and go, and it will surely fail. Another engine could tolerate
both without a problem.

I have a theory that there was technical discussion within the industry
where, in the lab and road testing, they were seeing some measurable
incremental pollution control advantage in narrowing down crankcase
venting and oil drain holes (the sort of thing that papers are published
on in technical societies), so several companies decided to try it out
without really knowing the longer-term effects - IOW, unintended
consequences, being prone to sludging being one of the unintended
consequences. IOW - a lesson learned.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I'm convinced that longer trip highway driving will make up for a
multitude of sins (poor maintenance, design prone to sludging, etc.)
that would otherwise do an engine in before 100k miles in the absence of
good highway miles.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I agree. I am the owner of a Chrylser with the 2.7L engine - known for
sludging up and failing between 60 and 80k miles. I drive it 80 miles a
day, 5 days a week, change the oil (and filter every oil change) between
3000 and 3500 miles, and kjeep 8 ozs. of Marvel Mystery Oil in the
crankcase at all times as a preventative. It turned over 200k miles
last month. I attribute it's longevity to the highway driving more than
anything else.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

My 1998 Camery is the fastest warming up car I've ever had. In winter
it's putting out heat on even very cold days before I get to the first
stop sign a few blocks away. Yet it never gets above half on the temp
gauge with AC running and parked with the wind from the back on the
hottest days of summer. I like that heater !

 

Haven't kept up with it, but I thought that inadequate oil drain
passages in the heads was determined to be the cause of the "sludge"
problem in some Toyotas.
IOW, overheating of the oil by the heads causing "coking" of the oil.
I never worry about short trips causing oil problems in my cars (none
Toyotas) since I do 3k oil changes. More concerned about that
prematurely rusting my exhaust. But hey, I don't worry much anyway.

--Vic

 

That TSB only applies to 3.9, 5.2 and 5.9 engines, and it doesn't have
anything to do with sludge. It addresses an oil consumption issue
caused by a leaking intake plenum gasket.

 

Toyota news

http://yotarepair.com/News_release.html

http://yotarepair.com/Sludge_Zone.html

http://yotarepair.com/My Opinion.html

 

I don't know why nobody has commented so far, but the V6 engines in
the 98-00 Stratus are not the 2.7 Chryco ones, but the Mitsubishi 2.5L.
The 2.7L appear from 2001 on.

 

Interesting links.

One thing that I failed to mention previously is the fraudulent
practices by many quick oil change places - and yes - even some dealers
- on oil and filter changes. By that I mean charging the customer for
it, documenting that it was done, yet not actually doing the work.
There are TV news team exposes on some of the quick oil change places.
And I caught the local Chrysler dealer doing that on my elderly mother
on the very first oil and filter change on her brand new Concorde. I
also discovered a Mopar filter (complete with rust around the unpainted
outer part of the base) on a Jeep Cherokee that my daughter bought for
which the previous owner had documentation that the oil and filter had
been religiously changed at a local quick change place since it was new
every 3000 miles. So - based on personal experience, you'd have a hard
time convincing me that this is not arguably a common practice.

I have to wonder how much that factor plays into this issue. Certainly
it would for engines who were more prone to sludging than others that
were more tolerant of extended/missed oil changes.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

oh yeah....some quick change places deal in so much volume that they have an
acceptable loss policy of 1 engine, 1 trans, or 1 differential...per month.

 

Reminds me of an older gentleman my daughter introduced me to a couple of
years ago, her next door neighbor. He has an old Chevy Nova he keeps mostly
parked in his driveway. Drives maybe 1/2 mile one way on his weekly trips
to the grocery store or what not. He complained about his carburetor
needing a rebuild recently due to buildup as he seldom drives. Son-in-law
did the rebuild. He found the plugs a bit fouled, but not too bad. The
oil, only a few months old was very thick and very black. He pulled a valve
cover, and found that cream colored greasy substance on it, water
contamination. No such in the oil itself or similar indication in the
antifreeze. After futher investigation, we all came to the same conclusion.
The lack of continuous driving time was causing the oil to foul as the rings
are probably not set any more. The creamy substance at the inside top of
the valve covers was due to dew buildup as the mornings are terribly moist
sometimes, and the engine never got hot enough to burn out the water.

Its an extreme exaggeration of what can happen to current vehicles (which
run hotter/faster nowadays), but, it drives home a point about the need to
put adequate highway miles to keep the contaminants down in the oil.

 

Yeah, I remember years ago a hidden camera news program caught a shop
just wiped clean the oil filter and claimed to have completed an oil
change.

Maybe that's what some Toyota dealers do anyway, because some of these
sludged up engines were maintained at the dealers.

 

Sure, condensation in the crankcase does a lot of harm. And driving
highways also helps the battery charge.