Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another Chrysler

In both Japan and EU a smaller percentage of the population owns a
car and drives regularly. Instead they have a lot of mass transit. As a
result they can be very nasty on the driving exams, they don't allow
newbie drivers on the road who don't know how to drive. Also they
practically cut your head off if you are caught drunk driving. As a result
you get a better quality of driver.

Why should Japan have to pay extra money so the airbags in their cars
are large enough to save an unbelted adult in a 60Mph crash? Everyone there
wears a seat belt.

In the US we have to let everyone and their dog behind the wheel, as a
result
the safety regulations have to be a lot tougher to allow for the worse
calibre of
drivers.

Ted

 

Speaking of driver's education. I'm in favor of cutting back on high school
extracurriculars, such as some sports, music, etc. And put money back into
driver's education. I don't care a wit on someone's past "jock" performance.
They'll end up with a gut as they grow older, balding too, I suspect.
BUT I HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS PERSON'S DRIVING SKILLS, SO CALLED, FOR THE
REST OF THEIR LIVES!!!!!!!!

 

Apologies to the group. I should have started a new thread.

 

how much is a quart of oil over there? Mercedes sometimes have 15,000 oil
change intervals and that's not always because of them running Mobil 1 in
them...

 

As a general rule, GM might take better care of their customers and use
"Goodwill" to help pay for out-of-warranty (not significantly-so,
however) customer repair expenses. At least, they have been known to
try to help out rather than otherwise. As the FAQs state, building a
good relationship at the dealership IS important if YOU "expect" to get
any type of consideration in times of need . . . does NOT matter if it's
Chrysler, Ford, GM, or otherwise.

Having a trusted private mechanic can be a good thing, but there are
ALSO times when it can be a hindrance--this is one of them. If the
engine had been torn down in a dealership's repair shop, it would have
been much different than if it's been taken apart somewhere else (as it
was in this case). Having the dealership's operatives see for
themselves the allegedly flaking camshaft lobes IS highly important.
Carrying the same camshaft into a dealership's service department and
wanting them to fix it is NOT the same thing--period! Doesn't matter if
it's Chrysler or another manufacturer, either!

For what it's worth, the comments about poor maintenance might be
considered "standard blame" items rather than otherwise. Therefore,
don't take then seriously as such.

So, 60,000 miles on a tried-true engine built by Chrysler and it has a
camshaft problem. I'd say it was a defective situation, typically, even
with "so-so" maintenance and non-synthetic motor oil and a discount
store oil filter. But as the engine was "off-site" from the dealership
and the miles were "out of warranty" and the factory's stated warranty
obligations, not much you can do. No oil change documentation was
readily available, either, I suspect? And you present parts purported
to be from said engine to a dealership operative and expect them to roll
over and hand you new parts for nothing?

Consider, how you might react in the same situation IF you were at the
dealership and somebody did the same thing you did. Would you believe
them completely? After all, you might be seeing a bad camshaft but how
do you know (beyond a reasonable doubt) that it came from an engine with
60K miles on it? Especially with the knowledge that you'd not seen any
similar things in your dealership repair shop?

It's unfortunate that you got a "brush off" of sorts, but as a legal
responsibility, the factory's responsibility ended at the end of the
factory's stated warranty period. This would have been a good situation
to have had a MANUFACTURER's extended warranty (NOT, repeat NOT an
aftermarket extended warranty!!!).

Now, as the camshaft lobes were having "issues", what about the valve
lifters on those particular lobes? Another key issue!

From the dealership side of things, getting into the financial side of
dealership operations for lube-rack operations is not really a part of
this whole situation. BUT doing business with a dealership and building
a relationship with them IS important as it is with any other business
we might choose to do business with. Having a private mechanic that is
trusted and honorable is a GREAT thing, but when it was discovered that
it might be a defective part situation, THAT's when the private mechanic
should have called (HIMSELF!) the dealership's service manager and told
him what he's found and ask the service manager to come inspect the
vehicle rather than giving you "defective" parts to take to the
dealership and request they do something about them. With all due
respect, I would hope that your former GM service rep might understand
the dynamics of that situation!

Now, defective camshaft lobes do NOT cause burnt valves. Worn valve
guides cause burnt valves as as the guide to valve stem clearance
increases, it will let the valve stem wobble inside the valve guide and
not seat as firmly against the machined valve seat in the cylinder head.
Over a period of time, the valve seat will erode from the exhaust gas
leakage from the valve that doesn't always seat fully.

In the cylinder head, either the valve seats are induction hardened or
they have hard inserts in the heads so unleaded fuels are better
tolerated . . . been that way on Chrysler engines since about 1973 when
they approved the use of unleaded fuel only in their V-8s.

If the valve seats in the cylinders heads (whether induction hardened or
with hard inserts) were worn away and the valve guides were worn, THAT
would be a defect of manufacturing that would not show up during the
normal warranty period. It could be possible that THAT is what might
have caused the valve lifter to impact the camshaft lobes and cause the
wear pattern you mentioned. So, the sequency of events would be
BACKWARD from what you mentioned--cylinder head/valve issues caused the
camshaft issues and not the other way around. Again, I would suspect a
competent engine mechanic would know these things (another "negative" on
your trusted former GM service rep, at least to me . . . he might be a
good guy, but many service reps are NOT good engineering or mechanical
types in all areas of engine operation . . . with all due respect and my
own observations from over 30 years in dealership parts and service
activities).

In reality, you could have had similar situations at ANY brand of
vehicle dealership. If Toyotas didn't break, there would be NO need for
the expanded service facilities current Toyota dealerships are upgrading
too--they're not doing it just for "by the book" maintenance operations
either.

European oil standards are different than what we see here in the USA.
Different oil specs, too, in some cases so that the "long change
intervals" can be supported.

A few years ago Mercedes had a big flap over "engine problems". Some
USA owners read the owners manual and saw the extended change intervals
recommended and took them at their word. In the cases where the dealers
did the oil changes, there was sufficient and trusted documentation of
the oil changes being done and at what mileage and what oil was used.
When those engines broke, Mercedes had no recourse but to replace them.
In the situations where the owners had the oil changes done elsewhere,
the burden of proof was upon THEM for documentation of time/mileage and
oil used--those people's success in getting their engines fixed was
highly variable, as a result.

As it turned out, the extended oil change intervals for Euro-brand
vehicles is highly dependent upon the oil used. This is why BMW, VW,
and othes have their own brand-packaged oil AND their own factory
approval specs for oils to be used in their engines. These are EURO
oils and NOT the same as normally-available oils in the USA (unless you
know how to read the oil bottles and such!). For BMW, the normal
maintenance and oil changes are part of their basic factory warranty
coverage, so they side-stepped the bad publicity that Mercedes and
Toyota have received over oil issues.

There are also differences in how Europeans are purported to take care
of their vehicles as compared to the general USA citizenry. This is
another factor in the extended change intervals of vehicles used in
Europe, even if the same vehicles are sold in the USA (with a different
maintenance schedule for oil changes).

On the dealership side of things, they didn't go broke NOT doing your
oil changes. But them not doing them takes away a huge amount of
credible documentation which could have been KEY in this situation (or
any other similar situation where it can be Your word against theirs).

Plus, if ANY "Check Engine" light comes on, you need to take it to the
dealership as the EMISSIONS WARRANTY usually goes on long past the basic
factory mechanical warranty on the vehicle. In some cases, it can go to
100K miles! What that means is that the manufacturer backs the vehicle
to meet federal emissions standards for 100K miles from new. If it does
not, they're obligated to fix it (which is usually a sensor or something
like that rather than an internal engine problem). Do NOT take it to an
auto supply to get them to see what the computer codes might be (so they
can help you start throwing parts at the problem and hopefully something
will fix it . . . at YOUR expense and their profit).

Do NOT take their recommendations to a dealership and expect them to fix
it without them using THEIR factory-approved scan tools, either (in an
effort to get around paying the dealership's "check out fee"), so they
can see what's going on and fix it according to what THEY see. It all
sounds really easy and cut and dried to pull the codes and start
replacing the "needed" parts without first understanding what will cause
particular codes to set--sometimes, one malfunction will set numerous
codes and if you don't know how they might interact, you can chunk lots
of parts at the problem and the codes don't go away and the vehicle is
not fixed.

Hopefully, IF you've read this far, you'll have a better understanding
of what went wrong in the dynamics of your situation AND how they could
have been prevented. Unfortunately, due to the many mis-steps and
elevated tempers, you're going to spend a good bit of money that might
have been covered in another manner . . . but NOT in the independent
repair shop (without some dealership service rep's involvement when the
situation was FIRST discovered rather than after the fact).

On the plus side, when you get your 5.9L V-8 repaired (hopefully with
factory-spec parts and a new timing chain), it'll be ready for a LOT of
more miles of reliable use. After all, the market valve of SUVs is down
so you might as well drive it than take a beating on resale value in
today's market. IF your engine has the flat-tappet valve lifters, be
sure to get a FACTORY camshaft as much of the issue with camshaft
durability in replacement camshafts has been with "replacement"
camshafts rather than factory-supplied camshafts. Yep, they'll cost a
good bit more, but they can be worth it in the long run.

Regards,

C-BODY