Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another Chrysler

I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.

A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
about $2200.

The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on
a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even
though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress
with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He
gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see
instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said
that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case,
they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
full compensation for the repair job.

A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service
rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less
accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
(in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with
Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.

Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much
time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that
the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had
no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.

It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
fall apart at 59k miles and the manufacturer would take zero
responsibility. After decades of buying, owning, and driving
Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've
always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't
decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye on
to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My
money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now
on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
of it.

I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of
reimbursement from Chrysler. I intend to write my state attorney
general and pursue this under lemon laws, and I suppose I'll send all
the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice
explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything. But I doubt
it.

If anyone has any other suggestions on how to seek redress on this,
I'd appreciate it.

 

Good luck. I went thru a similar thing with Ford some years ago.
Frankly I don't think one manufacturer is any worse or better than
another one these days on this sort of thing. Pursue it, but try not to
drive yourself crazy over it (like I did with Ford).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Have you considered a accidential truck fire.. hint hint

 

Couldn't hurt to try. Years ago, the number 2 exhaust and number 4
intake camshaft lobes went flat on our 1980 Toyota Celica, with on
43,000 miles on it. At the time, Toyota had a wimpy 12 month / 12,000
mile warranty, and they refused to do anything. However, the extend
service agreement that was sold to us by the dealer offered to pay
half the cost, even though the coverage had expired six months
before.

The oil had been changed regularly since new. It was clearly a
manufacturer defect.

-KM

 

As well he should. You didn't take your vehicle into his shop for a
repair, you took it to a private mechanic. Why should he help you?

I think your missing the point. If you had taken it to a Chrysler dealer
then Chrysler corp. would be assured that the camshaft had actually
been in your car. I'll also bet that you didn't take your truck into
the dealership for regular oil changes, you took it to your other
mechanic or a quick oil change place.

Here's the deal. You bought a new vehicle. You elected to deny
the Chrysler dealer the profits for regular maintainence during the
warranty period. Thus you deprived yourself of the chance of building
a relationship of trust with the dealer.

You don't seem to understand I think that car dealerships depend on
the profits from the service department to stay in business. No car
dealership could survive if they didn't do service work and just depended
on the margin on vehicle sales.

You have a relationship of trust with your "family" mechanic that
is a result of years of doing business with him. As a result he is
willing to cut you deals and go to bat for you. If you had given
the same car dealership that you bought your truck from all of
the maintainence work, you would have that same relationship
with them - and likely the dealership owner would go to bat for
you against Chrysler.

Let's see. Mfg recommended intervals for oil changes are 6K
right? That's a total of 10 oil changes since it was new. Suppose
the quickie lube does changes for $20 a change, and the dealership's
obscene rates are $60 for an oil change. So it seems to me
here that you saved $400 in oil changes by having the quickie lube
do them - but you lost $2200 in an engine rebuild. Not a very
smart thing I think.

Under normal wear and tear I'd agree with this.

Not appalling at all. How do they know how you were treating the
vehicle unless you were visiting them all of the time for the little
piddly stuff?

Are you going to sell your truck? If not, then I would see how much
more life you get out of it. What happens if you get another 160,000
miles out of it without trouble, in which case what are you going to be
saying about Chrysler vehicles then?

Your only option is your state lemon laws - assuming they are very
liberal. But you will never get back what you lost on this even if you
get reimbursement of some kind. Espically the time you spend
pursuing this. That is the breaks. Treat this as a learning experience.
Next time you go car shopping for a NEW vehicle, understand that
part of the cost of buying new is it costs more since your going to
have to spend your money at the dealership service department for
a while.

Ted

 

Well, I don't agree with Ted that Chrysler corporate should treat you
any differently because you elected to perform routine maintenance
yourself (or have a mechanic you trust do it).

But viewed from the other side, the failure *did* happen out of
warranty. I would hope that Chrysler will eventually cut you a little
slack and at least cover part of the cost, but they're really not under
any obligation to do so.

And further, I can't agree with your decision to swear off Chrysler over
this. If it were a commonly documented failure (like Toyota engines
that lose oiling becuase they generate sludge due to inadequate PCV flow
and high oil temperatures, GM v6 engines that fail because the intake
manifold gaskets leak coolant into the oil, or the early Chrysler 2.7
that would fail its timing chain tensioning system, etc.) and they
offered no help then you absolutely should swear them off. But during
the 40+ years that the LA smallblock was in production, I don't know
that I've ever heard of another case of the camshaft "falling apart" the
way you describe. I don't doubt you, I'm just saying that this whole
thing may fall into the category of "strange shit happens once in a
while." $2000 to repair it really is a relatively small fraction of the
value of the truck (certainly a lot less than buying a replacement).
Call it a bummer and move on, its not going to happen to you again.

 

AGREED! Damn Ted your good!

The 5.2 and 5.9 is a very good engine and I was sorry to see it go. Chrysler
doesnt know what the intake looked like before the repairs. It was more then
likely sludged up and cleaned after the repairs.

He may get that if the oil is changed at the proper intervals

 

What do you call "proper" intervals?

Because I bought a US spec 2007 Dodge Caravan 3.8 new and imported it.

In the US and in the service book it says 3000 miles.
The same vehicle (albiet with the 3.3 version of the same engine and called
the Chrysler Voyager) is available here in the UK but right hand drive.
It has 12,000 miles between changes specified.

I think 12k miles is as lot. But I think 3k miles is rediculously short.
Here in Europe I dont think there are any cars avasilable with such a short
interval! Even ones that are also sold in the US. Almost all specify 6, 10
or 12 thousand mile intervals. There are lots of very old 200 thousand mile
taxis and company cars still running just fine! The scrap yards get them due
to rust before the engines give up!

Personally I do it every 5k miles with Mobil 1 full synthetic 0w/40 rather
than the fuel saving tap water thin 5w/20 specified for a bit of belt and
braces peace of mind.

 

depends on the oil

I believe that Europe has some silly law that mandates vehicle manufacturers
must manufacture engines that will work at minimal 12k mile intervals.
Someone
undoubtedly will correct me.

Here is my $0.02 for what it's worth. Oil has 2 components - a lubricating
component (ie: the oil) and a cleaning component (the detergent that
neutralizes
the sulfuric acid that forms from blowby that goes into the crankcase) The
oiling system in a vehicle has 1 major component - the filter.

There's 2 general types of oil filters out there. The "regular" ones and
the
"heavy duty" ones. The heavy duty ones have more filtering area and so
can fill up with more contaiments more slowly - you get more miles out of
them. Heavier filters in general are the longer-lasting ones. When the
oil is black the filter is full and is in bypass mode and not filtering.
The
oil FILTER must be changed then. When the oil molecules are "worn out"
the oil doesen't lubricate any more and must be changed. When the
detergent package is "full" it is no longer neutralizing acids and once more
the oil must be changed.

Unfortunately there is no visible indicator as to when the detergent package
is "full" or when the oil molecules are worn out, or when the oil is
contaminated
enough by metals, or when some of the other lubricant additives (like
molybendum)
are used up. HOWEVER the people that live and breath motor oil for a living
all claim that cars that have had oil analyses done on them every 3K miles
have
shown that the ADDITIVE PACKAGE itself can last AT LEAST 12,000 miles
and possibly much longer EVEN FOR standard NON-SYNTHETIC oil.

Unfortunately oil analysis is more expensive than
an oil change for a passenger car which is why nobody does them on passenger
cars - although, oil analysis is routinely done on commercial large engines
that
have a lot more oil in them.

My PERSONAL OPINION is that none of the "standard duty" cheap oil
filters can last 12,000 miles in a regular passenger car before going into
bypass.
That is based on my own observations of checking, feeling, and smelling the
oil in all the vehicles I've owned. I HAVE noted a MARKED difference in
the expensive heavy duty filters - think NAPA and WIX and Hastings - but
those filters cost at least double your standard Purolator. (Fram of course
I
wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole) I think in a newer low-mile engine with
little blowby that a high quality filter CAN last 12,000 miles - but I would
definitely continue to check the oil every 3,000 miles, not just for clarity
but for level. In an older high mile engine, I don't believe even a heavy
duty
filter can last that long.

I think this is a tremendous waste of money. Synthetic oils last FAR LONGER
than standard oils. If I were you I would AT LEAST consider doing an
OIL FILTER change every 5K miles, and only do the oil change itself every
10K miles if your going to use Mobil 1. But I think that still, this is
tremendous
overkill for synthetic oil.

On my older engines (all of have over 100K on them) I do an oil change and
filter change every 3K miles. I use a standard non-heavy duty filter unless
I'm
able to find the heavy duty ones on sale. One of my engines consumes oil at
about a quart every 2K miles. The other - which has more miles on it -
consumes
oil at a rate of about a quart every 5K miles. I also use standard dino
oil -
and whenever I can get it on sale, I stock up.

Ted

 

Chrysler corporate and the Chrysler dealer are two entirely different
entities. I won't bother starting the argument of whether or not the
factory should even use dealers at all - Dell Computer seems to have
done well selling high-ticket items without involving dealers - but the
facts of the matter are that all automakers that sell in the US regular
passenger cars use a dealer system.

If you don't like buying from a dealer then buy used vehicles out of
the newspaper from a private seller. There's some super-fantastic
deals to be had out there doing it this way, you can even sometimes
get cars that are only a couple years old, still under the factory
warranty, this way. But you can't get new. If you must have new,
then you have to play the game the way the manufacturer wants you
to play it. And the manufacturer wants you to use the dealer system
so if you decide to buck the system as best you can, your taking
a huge risk for a very little savings.

And don't think for a second that the automakers don't already
understand all of the ramifications of this.

The US product laws forbid a manufacturer from forcing a buyer to
use the dealer system - for example Chrysler cannot sue private
individuals who sell cars through the newspaper, as much as they would
prefer that the cars be traded in so their dealers can sell the used ones.
BUT, the automakers CAN setup an "environment" where it discourages
non-use of the dealer system by new car buyers as much as possible,
and one of the ways they do it is through warranty claims.

What your all missing is in this particular Original Posters scenario
it makes no difference if the engine blew up within the warranty or not.
If it HAD blown up under warranty then Chrysler STILL would have
probably denied the claim, citing inadequate oil changes - IF the only
thing the OP could have come up with is a handful of receipts from
quickie lubes for the oil changes. Of course, in that case, the OP would
have the law on his side and he could get resolution though the courts.

How much simpler would it have been to just do the oil changes at
the dealership so that when Chrysler corporate called the dealer and
said "what the hell is this new engine claim crapola your putting in" the
dealership could simply tell them "hey, we have a service record as
long as my dick for this guys car and goddamit we did every fricking
oil change speced in the book, so don't you even try pulling that
inadequate oil change bullcrap on us or I'll ram his service record
up your ass"

No, they aren't. And because of this they won't.

Consider that MOST products you buy today have
NON-TRANSFERABLE warranties, and you will see that
frankly the automakers are giving you a really, really REALLY
fantastic warranty deal.

Hell, do you get a warranty like this when you buy a home?
HELL NO. Oh, if it's a brand new house, for at least the first year
you will be able to get SOMETHING out of the builder - but
the home construction industry is notorious for not living up
to any kind of warranty. And homes are far, far more expensive
than cars.

I firmley believe that most new vehicle purchases have a large component
of "non-logical consideration" in them.

If everyone's new car purchase was COMPLETELY a logical purchase then I
believe that the vast majority of new car purchases would be spec-built.
The buyer would walk into the dealer and order the car with the exact
features
he needed, then wait 6 weeks or whatever for it to be built and delivered.
It would be rare indeed that a buyer's needs would exactly match up with
the features of a vehicle already on the lot.

But this doesen't happen, which indicates for most people it's at least as
much an emotional purchase as it is a logical one. Thus, none of us are
going to convince the OP (if he's even still reading this thread which I
doubt) that his decision to never buy Chrysler again is not logical -
because
he very likely didn't use a lot of logic for the purchase in the first
place,
and he is unlikely to change his car buying ways in the future.

Ted

 

(1) One irony in an older engine is that the fact that it needs a quart
or two added between changes means that the interval may be extended
somewhat. Of course that doesn't extend filter life being as it has had
to filter as much blowby regardless of any loss and makeup - but if one
were to use a quality filter and be changing filters at every change
rather than at every other change...

(2) At least one of the participants on the 300M Club forums
(http://300mclub.org/forums/index.php?sid=426876de8fc01e7e267dc347d2afee34)
has experimented quite a bit with different oils and filters utilizing
oil analysis by Blackstone Labs to see how far the change interval can
be reasonably extended (in his 300M, the way he uses it). The
information is there if anyone is interested (the forums' search engine
works well).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I avoid this whole problem by not buying new vehicles and assuming
things like this will happen. When it does I either fix it myself or I
pay an independent guy to do it to my specifications, which are
usually excessive, so I pay excessive. Still I come out ahead.

As far as dealer service, I say PHOOEY, PHOOEY, PHOOEY. Not at those
rates.

The average dealer ship mechanic is doing HOW MANY flat rate hours in
a forty hour work week?? The flat rate books are generally radically
overtime. I think they hire 90 year olds to do the "research tests". I
can beat the flat rate sometimes and I am a slothlike wrench turner by
my own admission.

I don't want to hear about the huge capital costs for electronic
diagnostic tools because it is a case of the manufacturer deliberately
gouging on these. If they had wanted to they could have used a common
RS-232 serial port, instead they came up with bullshit OBD systems
with assorted plugs and protocols. Even so the aftermarket has priced
scan tools for a few hundred bucks, very tops, and half the cost is
their reverse engineering because the manufacturer chooses not to
fully document their product.

I also don't want to hear about the $30K tool box because those
trucks are F'ing you guys. Half the price of Snap-On is the dealer
credit program.

 

Filters are cheap. Oil is cheap, too.

Every car engine should be designed to take a standard Ford
Motorcraft FL-1A filter. Two, three bucks.

But noooooo......

BTW, I'm a firm believer in the full flow and separate bypass filter.
I like the TP Franz filter. Some don't.

 

WOW! I was considering a Dodge Caliber, but will buy a new Subaru when the
09 Forester hits the show rooms this spring My current Subaru has been
extremely reliable. Why roll the dice on a Mopar?

 

Have you spent any time on Subaru forums in the last few years? They
are definitely not without problems either. Clutch problems, brake
problems, rear wheel bearing problems...

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

My wife and I bought a 2007 Caliber in August, it has over 10K miles
and is getting 28-30mgp in mixed driving, not problems and solid. One
of the best Chrysler products I have ever bought.

 

The old Subarus with the pushrod EA81 and similar were very reliable
maintainable cars. The newer ones IMO are complicated and while
reliable can get very expensive to keep going OOW.

The auto makers just can not fathom some of us do not like high tech
cars. Of course the Nazi US vehicle laws do not make it any easier.

Were we to harmonize our safety and emissions laws with Japan and the
EU we would save billions of dollars a year.

 

The Chrysler filter is pretty close in size to the FL-1A, it's a pretty
good filter. Also, the FL-1A can be substituted for many other filters.

Ted

 

I do hope that whatever new vehicle you buy you take the advice
about building a relationship with your dealer to heart.

Ted

 

I just returned from a 900 km return trip through the western Canadian
mountains with my '95 Concorde.
Ran like a clock, up two steep snowy mountain roads to over 4,200 ft.
and cruising at 130KPH on bare pavement to avoid being passed by grit
throwing large SUVs and pickups. Fuel mileage as when new, a new car of
the same size would use only slightly less fuel.
On the return a Feb. thaw had started and fortunately I managed to avoid
several large rock and ice falls on the road, so didn't have to mount my
FULL SIZED spare. If I damaged a tire and only could store a compact
spare, I'd have no room to store the flat. Actually I couldn't continue
my trip without a matching tire.
I just washed the mess off it today and my only new damage is a few very
tiny chips in the hood front top paint coat.
In the ski season I do several of these trips, most only 340KM return
and still not a sign of body rust after many years of these trips.
A great Canadian body.
This car has proven itself again to be very tough, designed and built
well for such driving. Too bad Chrysler hasn't a replacement for it, but
I'll wait as long as this Concorde meets my requirements.