Detroit auto makers try some new tricks

"Steve" ...

Exactly - not compacts. You've proven my point.

But as long as they run reliably, and cost little to operate, they're still
a bargain.

They're still larger than the Toyotas that are the most commonly purchased,
such as the Corolla.

Natalie

 

"Steve" ...

And so did Toyota, or people who don't change their oil would have the same
problem in later models.

You've conveniently snipped out my question of why later model cars don't
sludge. Damages your credibility.

Natalie

 

"C. E. White"...

And I *still* haven't seen any proof from the sludge whiners that Toyota
kept producing cars that did that when the owners neglected changing their
oil. I live in the *now* - sludge whiners should do the same.

How long ago was that?

Again, I have never seen anyone who says Toyotas are perfect; they have just
said that any problems are easily fixed by either (usually) Toyota
themselves, or the individual.

Big difference from the "service" domestic makers provide.

If they don't do an about-face on their customer service, they'll go
belly-up forever.

Natalie

 

It's the "low-end" economy domestics that gave many I knew of lots of grief.

Low end economy cars are typically bought by someone who can't afford
a better car. These buyers are often younger people who are harder on
cars and money is tight so maintenance isn't kept up with like it
should be. I wouldn't expect a low end economy car from any company
to hold up as well as their higher end luxury cars.

There are plenty of American low end cars that were reliable. Tons of
Ford Escorts out there with a half gazillion miles on them. Cheap
Saturn's had a small list of "common issues" but ran forever even
after they started to smoke like a chimney. Chevy Cavaliers are like
roaches.. they can still run for a few weeks after you cut their
front end off.


Steve B.

 

I'm sure the above was just a typo, but mini-vans were from the 80's not
the 90's.

Jim (Had an 85 Caravan)

 

Well of course not, but my teenaged son was vicious with my Echo, and the
worst thing that happened was sand in the bearings. His own car, a
Mitsubishi Gallant, was far more neglected than my Echo had been, yet it
always runs, too. I think an equally relevant angle to this, is that when
something does go wrong, what sort of response do you get from the company?
Not the dealer, the regional guys, or any of that. The actual company.
I've found Toyota to be superior in meeting my needs, the few times I have a
problem with their vehicles. My friends/family members with "economy"
domestics are not so fortunate. Additionally, whenever I see a late-model
vehicle on the side of the road with its hood up, it's always something
other than a Toyota. I've never seen a late model Toyota on the side of the
road, except when it's wrecked or has a flat tire. No open hoods. I'm not
saying they never break down on the road, but I personally have never seen
it. The only raised hooded-Toyotas I've seen on the side of the road are
very old ones.

On the other hand, I'd have to say the same thing about late model *domestic
large vehicles*. Haven't seen them on the side of the road with hoods up
either. So, obviously, some companies are better at making certain vehicles
than others.

I know people with domestic economy cars, who have had them a long time, but
not without frequent problems. Yes, they managed to put some miles on them,
but by paying far more in maintaining the car than I did for the same class
of vehicle, despite the lower domestic purchase price.

Hopefully, the Fusion will lead the way in reversing that trend.

Natalie

 

Yes, unfortunately, I still have several friends who refuse to get rid of
their early-90's SL1 and SL2 model Saturns.

 

Uh, Odyssey? Sienna?

Like the old "I've had this axe for 50 years. Replaced the handle
twice and the axe head 3 times."

 

No it isn't. The Sebring coupe was, but it's not made any more. The
Sebring now is a 4-door sedan, the JS body. The Cirrus name
disappeared with the previous model, the JR. The Stratus is also
gone; now the 4-door Dodge is the Avenger (which at one time was the
Dodge version of the 2-door Sebring coupe).

So Cirrus sedan (JA) --> Sebring sedan (JR) --> Sebring sedan (JS)
Sebring coupe (FJ) --> Sebring coupe (ST) --> gone
Sebring convertible (JX) --> Sebring convertible (JR) --> Sebring
convertible (JS)

Stratus sedan (JA) --> Stratus sedan (JR) --> Avenger sedan (JS)
Avenger coupe (FJ) --> Stratus coupe (ST) --> gone

And BTW, the Sebring and Avenger coupes were made in the US.

 

I guess I'm fortunate here re Chrysler dealerships.
We have many dealerships of all flags and our Chrysler dealers are first
class. I've dealt with most of them since the early 80s.

Unfortunately our GM dealerships always turn me off with a terrible
marketing approach, so I haven't purchased a GM vehicle since the 70s,
even though I once was a GM buyer.

The Ford dealership nearest me, which I would deal with, is also a bit
scummy on marketing. I wonder how many years they have been forced to
have their weekly "bank forced" sale at "less than cost". Such crap, I
certainly wouldn't trust them after reading their ads.

 

Wickeddoll® wrote:

I take you at your word that you realize they do have problems.... but I
*HAVE* heard people who believe that because they bought a Toyota (or
less often, a Honda) that they'll never have to get it serviced at all.
Believe it or not...

Someone mentioned that maybe the bigger difference between Japanese and
American cars is the dealer network rather than the manufacturer. That
may be true. For example, I have never, never, never EVER (and never
will!) darken the door of a dealer service department. And especially
not for "routine maintenance." I do all that myself. Not that they're
paricularly incompetent (although on the rare times I've been to a
dealer for an oddball quirky electronic/computer problem, they seem as
clueless as anyone else and I wind up figuring it out myself in the end)
Its that dealer service departments often try to up-sell services that
aren't necessary (eg. fuel injector "cleaning.") The only type of place
that I consider more harmful to the well-being of my car (and wallet)
than the dealer service department would be a place like Jiffy Lube.

 

I have no idea how the company would respond as I have never had any
need to contact them. We have three currentish cars in the house
right now and none have ever had to go back to the dealer for anything
that wasn't handled promptly and properly. Sorry to hear that your
Toyota dealership isn't able to take car of your cars for you without
you having to escalate the issue to corporate.

True. I hardly ever see a broken down newish Toyota on the side of
the road. 'Course I hardly ever see any newish car of any brand name
on the side of the road anymore. I spend a great deal of my day
driving between calls and don't see more than one or two broken down
cars a week of any vintage.

If you've had good luck with Toyotas keep buying them! I agree that
they make an excellent product. For my personal taste they are bit
boring.
Steve B.

 

C. E. White wrote:

I left out Ford because I couldn't remember when the Esquirt came out (I
don't count the Festiva, it was a pile of junk, and imported from Asia
anyway). But yeah, Ford had the Escort, Taurus/Sable, and Tempo/Topaz by
the mid 80s. That's a compact, a midsize, and a fullsize, or a "full
range" of cars and Toyota really didn't make the jump to FWD until
almost 1990.

Actually, I hate FWD in many ways (as Some-O will certainly remind me
;-) but I was challinging the statement above which claimed:

 

Some years ago, I suddenly - like a bolt of lightning out of the blue -
came to the conclusion that there was one primary criteria for
eliminating a given vehicle from my long list: Whether the hood is held
open by a prop rod or a nitrogen cylinder. That seems to be a very
good leading indicator of the attitude with which the vehicle was
designed and marketed.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

So what was the engineering change for Toyota? Chrysler re-worked the
PCV system, changed materials in the timing chain tensioner system, and
increased oil flow in certain areas to reduce peak oil temperatures. I
have heard/read NO similar detailed explanations of the alleged changes
Toyota made. Prove me wrong and find descriptions of the changes in
detail and I'll stop questioning the status of the fix.

No, I didn't snip it out, my response is still quoted above: Its not
proven to be fixed yet, as I still see reports of it in the newsgroups
and still hear references to it as a possible problem on car talk-shows.

 

You're very welcome?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Good point. Think about that in the context of low end cars almost
invariably being made with interference engines whose cams run on timing
belts (true of every single car - aimed at the low end of the market -
coming out of South Korea in the 90's if I'm not mistaken).

(1) Which economic level of buyer is most likely to be totally ignorant
of what a timing belt is, much less that it absolutely *has* to be
changed on a regular basis?

(2) Which economic level of buyer is most likely to fail to change the
timing belt on a regular basis due to either (1) above, or not being
able to afford it when needed, and having to choose to pay the rent and
feed the family instead of car maintenance and so is forced to cross
their fingers and hope beyond hope that the belt doesn't break?

(3) Which economic level of buyer is most likely to be forced to junk
their vehicle when the timing belt breaks and it will cost more to
repair the damage than the car is worth and than it will cost to buy a
used junker to replace it with (that might also have an interference
engine and be due for a new timing belt)?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

"Steve"

OK, that would be just dumb. Any mechanical device will malfunction, no
matter how well built.

Hmmm I've only had bad luck with one dealer service department, and that was
LARRY MILLER TOYOTA in the Phoenix area. Stay the hell away, or bring lots
of cash.

Don't count on the car working when they're done, though....

Natalie

 

"Steve B." ...
"Wickeddoll®"
wrote:

No, I didn't say I had a problem that had to be taken to corporate. I'm
saying that if your friend had a serious problem, then he/she should go up
through the chain-of-command, so to speak.

I had a terrible time with COURTESY COLLISION PRO in Orlando, but Courtesy
Toyota/Scion service department was fine. Go figure - same company.

I ended up getting my car's body repaired by Rick Hendrick Toyota here in
North Carolina. They rawk, if any of you are in this area. I highly
recommend them! I go there for everything, since neither me or my hubby are
mechanically inclined.

Guess I've lived in places that have more traffic, because I see at least
one domestic car with the hood up either going to or from work. Could be
that here in the Bible Belt more people drive US, I don't know.

I don't really put much stock in looks (I drive an Echo ), but the Camry
is boring, even for me. However, I'd like to go back to domestic, so I'm
rooting for them to rebound.

Natalie

 

"Steve" ..

I'm no engineer - like yourself, I can only go by anectodal evidence. You
haven't shown *me* anything to prove the problem hasn't been resolved. So
there we are.

Where? And I don't mean the usual sludge whiners. Show me one from within
the last five years.

Natalie