Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half!

The problem with health insurance these days in the US is that people
basically want to use
it to pay for everything.

I personally am in the "struck it rich" category, as about 10 years ago I
was under one of
those red-carpet HMO's of the time and got cancer - I'm cured now but the
total bill for
me was in the $100,000+ range. All but about $3K of it paid by insurance.
But you see,
this is what health insurance was originally designed to cover, and what
it -should- cover.

The problem today is people want health insurance to cover things like
checkups, and
outpatient medical procedures in the under-$5000/year range. But how does
an insurance
company pay the rare $100,000+ claims like mine when every last one of it's
customers
who is paying about $10K a year in health insurance premiums is pulling
about $5K a year
out of the health plan in benefits for piddly shit? (and a lot of them are
pulling more like
$7K -$8K)

And it's really a vicious circle now because even the people who are willing
to pay
for the piddly-shit themselves can't do it - because the doctors offices
play billing
games, they know the insurance company only pays out 30% of a given
procedure
so they inflate the cost of a $20 procedure to $80, then the insurance
company knocks
it back down to $30 and the doctor makes a $10 profit. A person who
doesen't want
to have their insurance cover the cost doesen't have the option of just
giving the doctor
$30 because they aren't in a plan. They have to give them the $80, so
there's no
incentive now to step outside of the sytem.

Ted

 

Only because, as I said, people in the US aren't used to it. At least right
now.

During the Civil War I think it was Petersburg, was shelled so heavily under
seige and for so long that people ended up paying no attention anymore to
the shelling. They would duck around a corner if they heard a shell coming
but otherwise completely ignored them and went about their business
unaffected.

The same thing happened in Ireland and I observed the same thing in London
when my wife and I went there on our honeymoon about 10 years ago. At
the time there had been a number of terror bomb attacks in the underground,
and literally if you left a bag sitting on the ground unattended for more
and
5 minutes, a bobby would run up and grab it and run off with it. There were
signs plastered all over the place regarding this. But the inhabitants
completely
ignored the fact that they could be blown up without warning and went about
their business.

People grow accustomed to anything, even the unexpected.

911 only made history because it was the first time a major office building
in
the US was dropped with airplanes. But for the last 30 years the security
inspection in US airports was a standing joke. Everybody said that it was
inadequate and we all were waiting for something like this to happen, but
we wern't really believing someone would actually do it.

It's like leaving your car unlocked on the street in front of your house.
The
first time you do it you are scared to death someone will steal the car.
Then
each time you do it you believe less and less that someone will steal it.
Finally
a year later it happens and your furious. Well, stupid you. Stupid us
Americans for letting the airplane inspection get so lax. But it's easier
to
blame the terrorists and make war on them then to get mad at ourselves
for being so stupid as to allow the inspections to be lax.

Anyway, the vast majority of terror attacks are not grand spectacular ones
like 911. They are the low-grade car bombs and such like in Iraq today.
People get used to them and then they become ineffective as instruments
in affecting policy.

You assume a lot when you assume 911 had a lasting effect on the country.
We are too close to 911 now. They haven't even rebuilt the twin towers.
You wait 20 years after the attack when the WTC site is all rebuilt, and the
911 attack is old history, and tell me then what 'lasting effect' that 911
has
had.

If you really want to look at something that has had a lasting effect on
US society, look at the television. TV has had much more lasting effect.

Ted

 

Bullshit. The cost of living, food shelter clothing, is fixed for everyone
in the US.
Nobody puts a gun to your head and tells you that you must buy that Rolls
Royce
rather than that Chevy for your car. Or that you must drink that fine wine
instead
of tapwater. The rich at the top can live on the same things that the rest
of us
live on.

Because of this, the middle class has little disposable income, the rich
have lots.
Thus the rich owe far more to the society that gave them tons of disposable
income that they can use to buy that fine wine and that Rolls with, than the
poor do. So, no more of this "pay more than their fair share" poppycock out
of your hole.

In the early part of this country, the rich like the Carnagies, the
Rockafellers,
the Mellons, the Gettys, they all understood this. While they didn't pay a
higher tax rate at the time they gave far more back to the society in the
form of endowments and charity payments than the middle class and poor did.

Unfortunately so much of the new rich these days are greedy and grasping
and have the disgusting me me me me me me attitude like you do. That is
why we had to adjust the tax rates so as to make them pay more taxes.
Left to themselves they would not lift a finger to help their neighbors.

Ted

 

It ain't sky is falling crap. The resources of the Earth are finite. Raw
materials are finite. This is what Entropy is all about.

Every time we manufacture another car we lose a bit of the steel
that goes into it, due to corrosion over the life of the car. So even
if we have 100% and perfect reclamation of all cars, we still need
tons of new steel every year to keep the cycle going. That steel
comes from a mine, and each year that mine is dug deeper, until
the vein is played out. Then the process repeats with another
mine.

One day far in the future all those mines will be played out. We will
still have all the steel we ever dug up - but now it will be in the form
of itty-bitty bits of rust scattered all over the face of the Earth.

Well, we could reclaim that, probably by distilling large quantities of
seawater. But the process is ten times more expensive than just
digging up the ore.

And this problem affects -every single- mineral on the Earth that
we use as raw material. Every time we suck an oil well dry, or
dig out a vein of ore in a mine, or whatever else, we make it more
and more expensive to get the same thing again.

Thus it is a given that it is impossible to support a continually
increasing human population. It may also be impossible to
forever support a technological population.

Remember the Earth supported a hunter-gatherer population of
humans for something like 12 million years. It's quite obvious that
that model of living is sustainable. However the Earth has supported a
technological population of humans for something like 200 years.
It's nowhere near obvious that this living model is at all sustainable.

Ted

 

Yes because there's a bunch of laws that the federal government has
regulating the content of US work in cars. That's the only reason that
Toyota is here assembling cars in the first place. If they had their wishes
they would never have come here.

Ted

 

No, not for electronics.

Has little to do with that.

With electtronics the move is to integrate everything on a single chip or a
set of a few chips simply because what the devices are expected to do
nowadays is so complex that it's impossible to design it in discrete
components
that would have any reliability. Take an ordinary DSL modem, that is
a device that has as much computing power as a 15 year old Cray
supercomputer.

And when you tie most of it up in a single chip, you cannot repair that
chip if it breaks..

Ted

 

I don't agree with pay cuts, for any workers, Delphi or not. I have never
agreed
with the idea of pay cuts.

But I do understand that some people are clearly overpaid.

This isn't the fault of the worker, however. Workers must be assumed to
try to get as much money as they can, whatever the circumstances.
Management
must be assumed to pay out as little as possible, whatever the
circumstances.

If in a given business like Delphi, the workers happen to be overpaid, this
is
not a worker problem. It's Management being stupid by giving away too much
at the negotiating table and letting the salaries go to high.

If a businesses conditions change and they find their line of work to be
less
profitable than before, thus making it more difficult to continue to pay at
the
same rate of pay as before, then their management must find other more
profitable lines of work. This is what diversification is all about. That
is why
management is running the company, not the workers. If management does
not do that then they have failed and the usual result is bankruptcy and
shutting down the company. This is a management failure, not a worker
failure. Nobody is holding a gun to any of Delphi's managers and telling
them they cannot quit their jobs anytime. Those managers are staying there
because they are claiming they are competent to run the company. If they
are not competent, than they are liars. If their company fails it is better
for
the economy because then it will be replaced by another company that does
have competent managers.

All of this is Business 101 and I think it surprising that these concepts
are
so difficult to understand.

Ted

 

Which has been said, relying on best data and methods available, for over
one hundred years...

1. The higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate - thus
population increase slows

2. Assuming we NEED all that steel... not at all evident, MEANTIME..

3. Check the amount of shale oil, check oil reserves untouched, check use
of oil vs synthetic from other sources - most renewable.

The fallacy is that most doomsayers choose to decry the techno-society
for depletion of resources yet in that techo-society lies the hope, not
to mention the proven benefit to quality of life.

Yes, EVERYONE has a part in that... even the tree huggers. Raising the
issues, however false their conclusion spurs innovation. Going
overboard, however, in artificial restraint of use or development
certainly isnt the answer.

As to your hunter-gatherer population being 'sustainable'... that part
isnt even well thought out. It is the LEAST sustainable of all the
models!

 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: "With electtronics the move is to integrate
everything on a single chip or a set of a few chips simply because what the
devices are expected to do nowadays is so complex that it's impossible to
design it in discrete components that would have any reliability. Take an
ordinary DSL modem, that isa device that has as much computing power as a 15
year old Cray supercomputer.
And when you tie most of it up in a single chip, you cannot repair that chip
if it breaks.."

I agree with having to repair the chip but you van just replace one chip
instead of throwing the whole thing in the garbage and buying another. This
would reduce the demand on such things as plastic and resins used in making
theses device. So why not repair? Because the manufacture makes more money
selling you a whole new one then they do selling you just a chip. This has
made us a disposable society.

I have worked in both resin unit, a polypropylene catalyst production unit
and now an ethylene unit all within on manufacturing plant in the last 15
years. I have seen how much production has had to increase to keep up with
demands. The only slow down came in the late 80's and early 90's but it is
back up. When I started in the job in the resins unit, we made a 5 million
pounds of a resin used in coating computer circuitry boards. This run would
take about a month. When I transferred to the catalyst production unit, the
resin unit was making 25 millions pounds per year along with increases in
the 80 plus other resins they made. The increase in production was due the
request of current customers orders and new customers they acquired. I seen
the same thing happen in both the catalyst and ethylene units.

We are a disposable society, we need to put more demand on the three "R's".
Recycle, Reduce, Reuse

Sarge

 

But when a replacement part is expensive compared to the price of the
whole device, and when you have to pay for a minimum of an hour's labor
at, say, $70/hr. (auto repairs in NY were $90/hr. two years ago), and
you can buy a new and improved model for $150 (built on an automated
assembly line in Asia supervised by $2/hr. workers) with a factory
warranty, why spend $100 fixing the old one?

Perce

 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: "Bullshit. The cost of living, food shelter
clothing, is fixed for everyone in the US. Nobody puts a gun to your head
and tells you that you must buy that Rolls Royce rather than that Chevy for
your car. Or that you must drink that fine wine
instead of tapwater. The rich at the top can live on the same things that
the rest of us live on.
Because of this, the middle class has little disposable income, the rich
have lots. Thus the rich owe far more to the society that gave them tons of
disposable income that they can use to buy that fine wine and that Rolls
with, than the poor do. So, no more of this "pay more than their fair
share" poppycock out of your hole.
In the early part of this country, the rich like the Carnagies, the
Rockafellers, the Mellons, the Gettys, they all understood this. While they
didn't pay a higher tax rate at the time they gave far more back to the
society in the form of endowments and charity payments than the middle class
and poor did. Unfortunately so much of the new rich these days are greedy
and grasping and have the disgusting me me me me me me attitude like you do.
That is why we had to adjust the tax rates so as to make them pay more
taxes. Left to themselves they would not lift a finger to help their
neighbors."

You need to go back to school and learn economics. We pay income tax on our
income and not what we spend. The rich pay taxes in a higher tax bracket
then the middle class and even higher then the poor. Some poor don't pay
any taxes or very little that the government gives them money back in the
Earned Income Credit.

Yes, the rich buy more expensive toys and luxuries of life but what your are
saying is that we should not allow them to use their income on theses things
those lowering the sales tax they pay on theses items. If knowing is allow
to buy them then these jobs would be lost and then they would have to go to
work in places making the Chevy type products you suggest they spend their
money on. Many of the rich do give money away each year. They do that
because they need to lower their taxes. Then there are some that make tons
of money in tax free investments and give very little back to society since
they don't have to pay taxes they don't need the tax break. They invest in
tax free municipal bonds.

Look up the richest 400 in America are and you will see that just about all
of them give money to different causes. Even though some only gave 1%, they
still gave more then most of us as a whole and they still paid more taxes
them most of us. I have more of a problem with them donating their money to
foundations that then have tax free status and take in millions of dollars
in donations and then only give out a small percentage of the donations back
as grants. To me to get a tax free status they need to have at least 60 to
70 percent of their assets distributed each year. The rest could be used
for running the charity.

Sarge

 

What's depressing about "Pictures of Matchstick Men"?

 

When I retired I did not applied for SS since I have more than enough
income. When I turned 65 my heath insurance provider sent me a letter
informing me I could no long keep my coverage because I had not signed up
for Medicare. I seems they do not have a policy available for those over 65
who are not on Medicare and pay for part 'B.' I had to sign up in order to
get the catastrophic coverage I wanted. The policy I have picks up the
balance of what ever uninsured amount that is over $15,000 annually. The
cost is relatively inexpensive with that amount of the deductible. Talk to
your agent.

mike hunt

 

Yes and you could live like those below your social status as well and pay
more taxes. The country is based on a capitalistic system it is not a
socialist or communist society. Not only do the rich already pay more in
dollars, they are taxed at a higher RATE as well, what more do you expect of
them?

The Rockefellers, Mellons, Heinz, Ford etal did not pay any federal income
taxes back then. The only taxes in those days were property taxes. They had
pretty much everything they needed and began to give away much of the
excess. In the nineteenth century Rockefeller even handed out dines, on the
streets of Pittsburgh, which amounted to a day wages in the steel mills and
mines, . Once the government imposed the 90% marginal tax rate they stopped
creating those foundations that bear their names because the government took
the bulk of their income. Nobody establishes foundations today during their
lifetimes on at there death for tax purposes. The Bill Gates types do give
away millions but it is done to reduce their tax liability.


mike hunt

 

The only regulation is that the vehicle must display the country of origin
and the percentage of north American parts in the VIN and a label listing
the country of origin of the major components. Check the first digit of the
VIN on a Toyota. Except for the few built in the GM/Toyota plant, where the
UAW contract requires the use of at least 75% American parts, you will find
a 'J' meaning it was built in Japan or a '4' meaning it was assemble in the
US of between 40% and 70% imported parts and the vast majority have a '5'
meaning it was assemble in the US of less than 40% American parts. Vehicles
actually built in the US of at least 75% American parts display a '1'

mike hunt

 

Once upon a time I had a Zoom modem than had a 7 year guarantee. The
thing died after a couple of years. A bad chip. I sent it back and it
worked, for 2 more years and died again. By then I was tired of the
hassle and the slight expense. But it was almost worth it for me
because I had very special software that only worked with this Zoom
modem. And the software of answering the phone and interpreting a fax
or voice worked well and at that time, this was a rarity. It sounds
like something simple, but I found this combo actually worked like the
proverbial tank, as long you I defragged the drive before use. It was
that sensitive to operating systems and specific chips.

 

Had a Zoom modem, 7 year guarantee. The thing died after a couple of
years. A bad chip. I sent it back and it worked, for 2 more years and
died again. By then I was tired of the hassle and the slight expense of
shiping and $10 fee? But it was almost worth it for me because I had
software that only worked with this Zoom modem. And the software of
answering the phone and interpreting a fax or voice worked well and at
that time, this was a rarity for inexpensive hardware/software.

About swapping out chips? It's good training. I liked the challenge of
finding and swapping out chips. I learned a little about oscilloscopes,
logic probes and the quickest way to destroy a computer. Nothing like
soldering on bubble wrap that was pink and conductive. Either that or
my soldering technique left something to be desired.

 

U.S. auto parts sector vulnerable to Delphi strike

Reuters / October 14, 2005

CHICAGO -- The U.S. auto parts sector faces potential supply shocks if
hourly workers strike Delphi Corp., which is pursuing wage and benefit
concessions from its unions, a key focus of its bankruptcy reorganization,
an analyst said.

"It's a distinct possibility that a work action does take place somewhere
through the course of this bankruptcy," Fitch Ratings managing director Mark
Oline said.

Highlighting that possibility, Richard Shoemaker, the United Auto Workers
official responsible for labor contract negotiations with Delphi, told
Reuters on Thursday, Oct. 13, that a strike "certainly is one of the options
that is available" to the union.

Delphi, which filed the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. automotive history Oct. 8
in New York, has said it wants to negotiate significant cost cuts with its
unions and plans to submit written proposals to them next Friday.

However, Delphi also has told the U.S. Bankruptcy Court that it plans to
begin the process of rejecting the agreements in mid-December if it cannot
reach a deal with its unions that would significantly cut its U.S.
manufacturing costs.

"We have not yet seen any supply disruptions, but it remains a key risk,"
Oline said. "That risk will only increase as we get closer to a date where
Delphi, if unable to achieve a contract with a UAW, needs to impose a
contract."

Delphi has about 50,600 employees in the United States, including 34,750
hourly workers, almost all represented by unions. Delphi had sought to
negotiate wage and benefit cuts from the UAW to avoid bankruptcy, amid
reports that suggested it sought cuts as deep as 63 percent.

"The extent of the wage and benefit reductions Delphi is seeking would be
difficult for any union to swallow easily," Oline said, adding that Fitch is
also keeping close watch on Delphi's plan for its pensions.

Smaller suppliers, which can be more vulnerable to cash flow interruptions
than larger companies, may feel some pressure because of payment
disruptions.

A missed customer payment could be a tipping point, but that has not
happened so far with the bankruptcy cases of Collins & Aikman Corp. and
Tower Automotive Inc. and appears unlikely in the Delphi case, said Neil De
Koker, president of the Original Equipment Suppliers Association.

"I don't suspect there will be a rash (of bankruptcies), but there will be
other Chapter 11s because the industry is still struggling," he added.

The vast majority of smaller suppliers probably have no more than a few
percentage points of business with any one company and should weather the
storm without having to file for bankruptcy themselves, De Koker said.

Collins & Aikman, which manufactures automotive interiors, filed for
bankruptcy protection in May and Tower Automotive, an auto-body frames
producer, filed for Chapter 11 in February.

 

U.S. auto parts sector vulnerable to Delphi strike

Reuters / October 14, 2005

CHICAGO -- The U.S. auto parts sector faces potential supply shocks if
hourly workers strike Delphi Corp., which is pursuing wage and benefit
concessions from its unions, a key focus of its bankruptcy reorganization,
an analyst said.

"It's a distinct possibility that a work action does take place somewhere
through the course of this bankruptcy," Fitch Ratings managing director Mark
Oline said.

Highlighting that possibility, Richard Shoemaker, the United Auto Workers
official responsible for labor contract negotiations with Delphi, told
Reuters on Thursday, Oct. 13, that a strike "certainly is one of the options
that is available" to the union.

Delphi, which filed the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. automotive history Oct. 8
in New York, has said it wants to negotiate significant cost cuts with its
unions and plans to submit written proposals to them next Friday.

However, Delphi also has told the U.S. Bankruptcy Court that it plans to
begin the process of rejecting the agreements in mid-December if it cannot
reach a deal with its unions that would significantly cut its U.S.
manufacturing costs.

"We have not yet seen any supply disruptions, but it remains a key risk,"
Oline said. "That risk will only increase as we get closer to a date where
Delphi, if unable to achieve a contract with a UAW, needs to impose a
contract."

Delphi has about 50,600 employees in the United States, including 34,750
hourly workers, almost all represented by unions. Delphi had sought to
negotiate wage and benefit cuts from the UAW to avoid bankruptcy, amid
reports that suggested it sought cuts as deep as 63 percent.

"The extent of the wage and benefit reductions Delphi is seeking would be
difficult for any union to swallow easily," Oline said, adding that Fitch is
also keeping close watch on Delphi's plan for its pensions.

Smaller suppliers, which can be more vulnerable to cash flow interruptions
than larger companies, may feel some pressure because of payment
disruptions.

A missed customer payment could be a tipping point, but that has not
happened so far with the bankruptcy cases of Collins & Aikman Corp. and
Tower Automotive Inc. and appears unlikely in the Delphi case, said Neil De
Koker, president of the Original Equipment Suppliers Association.

"I don't suspect there will be a rash (of bankruptcies), but there will be
other Chapter 11s because the industry is still struggling," he added.

The vast majority of smaller suppliers probably have no more than a few
percentage points of business with any one company and should weather the
storm without having to file for bankruptcy themselves, De Koker said.

Collins & Aikman, which manufactures automotive interiors, filed for
bankruptcy protection in May and Tower Automotive, an auto-body frames
producer, filed for Chapter 11 in February.

 

the real nasty thing that bothers me about all this is the fact that companies
from other countries come here and build factories and make money and employ our
citizens at a fair and living wage while our companies founded here either move
out of our country or close
and what i have found is, the transplants that come here have executives in the
ranks that do not get millions in stock options and such.
they get a fair wage for what they do and no more with the rest going bac into
the company
while our executives rape the company for all they can then when it fails blame
all things they can for the mistakes they made /make. then they leave such as
robert lutz has done
and now look were he is at. gm now junk status credit wise,
and delphi is one of these.
companies are entinies (irs definition ) and not people but run by people. there
fore they do not get freedoms and have a legal and moral obligation to this
country and if they do not abide by them then they get the boot
example worldcom and there is many more i could use
it's high fucking time we all take responsibility for our actions before it's
too late and that before too late is not far off !example being
how can we as a free country express our right to express our views and
opinions
when we as a country do not speak the exact same language. english
my ancestors are from austria and had to learn how to speak english so should
all the spanish . and it not be a second language for our land! we are americans
and need to speak american. how in the **** can u express you opinion to your
neighbor if he can't understand what the hell you are saying! step one of
failure bad communication