Daimler-Chrysler Divorce Negotiations Underway

My oh my, your Intrepid is as good in snow as my Concord.
Since Chrysler's LH cars are so good in slippery conditions perhaps we
should keep them forever and not get one of those other FWD vehicles
many here say are so poor in slippery conditions <

 

I see mostly 4x4's slid off the road here. Mostly because of drivers
who think since they have a big ol 4x4 they can drive 65mph on ice.
I've always owned a 4x4 of some sort and on frozen solid roads I usually
drive about 35mph if traffic is light and clear visibility.

 

Has more to do with driver skills, tires, gearing etc. Name a 4wd that
won't perform as well as the FWD Intrepid on snow packed roads.

There are some 2wd vehicles with limited slip or locker equipped diff's
that in certain cases can perform better than some PT 4x4's.

 

I used to drive Corvairs - had a few 2nd gens which handled beautifully.
Same problem as the Beetles though with the o-rings leaking into the
heater boxes.

 

Dave, you are probably correct re being in the minority. However,
personally, I like RWD more. Sure, the 300E breas lose... BUT the point is
that I can easily feel it starting and can 'control' it.... drifting it's
called I believe. On the other hand, the Cavalier probably sticks to the road
a bit better but, once it breaks lose, watch out... I end up spinning around my
front wheels.... the RWD is more balanced and provides more control. If you
are a driver that enjoys driving RWD is the way to go... if you are driving
kids around etc... front wheel drive is probably better

cheers

 

Damn Miles, talk about posting just to start an argument or just to bitch.

And when that 2wd limited slip happens to be the front wheels such as
traction control, it does even better and I guess that you answered your own
question above.

 

Because the FWD vehicles never made it out of the driveway.

 

What exactly are you trying to say? I am pro FWD for the most part but they
are not perfect either. They do have superior handling characteristics but
the problem with that is that they will hold the road to their maximum
capability with little skill required from the operator so once they are
pushed beyond their ability, there is little chance of recovering,
especially by a driver with little skill to begin with. A RWD vehicle OTOH,
tends to require more skill as the speed increases which for most with a
functioning brain, prevents them from pushing the vehicle beyond its
capability. As for your winter weather example, with the RWD, like said
above, it requires more skill to get the vehicle moving than with a FWD
which is why you see more of them off of the road. As for the 4WD, that is
more due to idiots driving them that for some reason think that snow and
slippery conditions don't apply to them.

 

Local one in this part of London closed and is now a Lidl (German owned
supermarket). They marked down all the stock heavily before closing but
still couldn't shift it. Most ended up at auction.

 

Yep, a FWD with traction control can in SOME cases such as sand do
better than SOME PT 4x4's. It won't do better in snow. However, I dont
know many PT 4x4's manufactured for the USA market in the past number of
years. My 2004 has switchable PT 4WD but otherwise is AWD.

 

In small cars I am as well. They do better in snow that most RWD cars.
Overall I'd rather have a 4x4 though. Reliability and cost of repairs
in many FWD cars is a bit much.

Depends on the circumstances. Torque steer issues plague many FWD cars.

 

I agree 4WD or AWD is best in very snowy conditions. but most of us need
very good handling in dry road conditions as well.
My recent experience with a 2007 AWD Ford Fusion at high highway speeds
(mostly 60 to 80 mph) told me I didn't want that specific model, even
though I like the Fusion very much. It had a significant tendency to
drift into the banked curves, like oversteer, something that caught me
off guard since my current car is FWD and I don't experience such a
handling problem. I'll have to try the FWD Fusion to see if it avoids
this problem.
I looked at the new model 2007 Honda CR-V and discussed at length with
the dealer the 4WD situation. Seems Honda found not all people cared
for the AWD in the previous CR-V so they now have both FWD and part time
4WD systems for their new CR-V. Their part time AWD system seems
sensible. It is FWD until driving wheel slip is detected, then it
becomes AWD. Although AWD would be nice to have I know from my FWD
experiences going to our mountain ski hills I don't need it, however
it's only the bottom CR-V model which I don't desire that has FWD.
I'll need a day or so to try out this part time AWD system.

I've not owned an AWD or 4WD vehicle, although I learned to drive on
4WD army trucks.
I can assure I do know how to drive in all conditions and those who
drive far too fast with 4WD/AWD vehicles in poor conditions are driving
me and many other drivers off the road when conditions are slippery.
Because of very good straight ahead traction they become over confident,
but in fact many of those vehicles don't handle as well as a mid sized
FWD car.
Just to accommodate these too fast drivers when they often lose it,
increasingly our highways are being built with a very expensive center
barrier.

What I'd like to have with my next FWD car is slightly higher ground
clearance. Regardless of the method of driving wheels, good ground
clearance to reduce the bottom dragging the snow is most important.
My Concord has slightly higher than normal clearance, which must be part
of it's success in deep snow, but a few inches more as have vehicles
such as the CR-V, the Subaru Forester and Outback I feel would be
desirable.
Inadequate ground clearance for deep snow is a strike against the
Chrysler 300 and Magnum. Their owners obviously know this as I've not
seen one of those cars driving in deep snow. I seldom see Mercedes and
BMW's in snow either. The last significant snow storm we had I had to
maneuver past a BMW that bogged down to a complete stop in deep snow at
an uphill left turn. My FWD drive wheels didn't slip one bit as I passed
him. I'm sure he stayed home the next snow storm. <

 

They only apply to street driving if you're a competent driver. That means
the advantages apply. Just because most people don't have a friggin clue
what they are doing doesn't make my statement invalid in the least.

 

How do you control the rear ALONE.

You have two brake pedals in your front wheel drive car or do you yank on
the parking brake? The only control that you have for the rear wheels
alone is the parking brake.

Well too bad for her.

Buy some decent tires or maybe you're not as good of a driver as you think
you are.

Just because you don't know what you're doing doesn't make me a fool.

Something for you to read:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070126/FREE/70122004

Here's the key part:


FWD

Advantages: Front-drive is generally benign in the snow, usually
understeering (continuing on a straight path) rather than oversteering
(sliding sideways or spinnin) when driven beyond the adhesion limit
(though oversteer is possible). Because the driven wheels are also the
steered wheels, most drivers can better judge the traction limit, which
allows them to modulate throttle and steering more easily than in a
rear-drive car. Controlling understeer is more intuitive than catching
oversteer.

Disadvantages: The driver cannot control the car's attitude with the
throttle as with rear-drive. Also, it helps to stay on the throttle in
oversteer situations, which is counterintuitive.

What to do (understeer): Dial out some steering. Maintain or slowly come
off the throttle while left-foot braking. This transfers weight to the
front wheels and aids traction.

What to do (oversteer): Countersteer, and maintain throttle. Don't slam on
the brakes, as this transfers weight off the rear tires. Also, by
maintaining throttle, you allow the front wheels to pull the vehicle straight.

Biggest myth: Front-drive is better in snow because more weight sits over
the driven wheels. This is true in some cases, but it depends on the
vehicle's weight distribution.

RWD

Advantages: For experienced drivers, rear-drive cars can be a lot of fun
because of the seperation of driven wheels and steered wheels. Throttle
steering can allow a greater window of control - if you know what you are
doing.

Disadvantages: There's a tendency to oversteer when driving too hard for
the amount of grip available. Sliding sideways is not a common experience
for most.

What to do (understeer): The same steps apply as with front-drive, though
skilled drivers might find a quick throttle jab rotates the rear end and
counters the understeer. Don't try this until you've learned the technique
in a controlled environment.

What to do (oversteer) Countersteer, ease off throttle, and don't brake -
in that order. Be careful not to overcorrect, as you'll snap in the
opposite direction when the rear tires hook up.

Biggest myth: Rear-drive is useless in snow. The No. 1 way to improve your
car's traction and handling is to install a good set of winter rubber.
Learning to drive properly in winter conditions is also at the top of the
list. And since most modern rear-drive vehicles feature traction and/or
stability control, you'll amaze your passengers with how easily your car
handles Old Man Winter.

 

How about a chicago ice storm?

 

I control the front wheels of a RWD drive car with the steering wheel. The
braking system works on all four at the same time.

The service brake operates all four, there is no independent control. Grow
a clue.

 

It's 'Concorde'.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Tame, I said in the mountains, HILLS with ice, snow and rain included.
I'm in Vancouver BC. In the winter driving to Whistler to ski it is
common to start out in temperatures a few degrees above freezing and
finish in temperatures several degrees below. It's usually raining at
Vancouver and progresses through hail, freezing rain, wet snow and dry
snow all within the 2 hr drive. Of course there are lots of curves and
several significant hills as the elevation rise is to 2,000 ft in the
last 35 miles.
A few times each winter there are heavy falls of wet snow over 30cm in
several hours, 40 to 50cm in 8 to 10 hours occasionally.

I've seen it all on this road and many 4WD vehicles are a big safety
problem due to their inferior handling compared to a mid sized FWD car.
They shouldn't drive as fast as the car traffic, but they try to drive
faster often with disastrous results.
I've seen 4WD vehicles suddenly lose a curve, even while just going
along with the traffic.
The evidence is left on the road side, unfortunately with loss of life.
The Jeep Cherokee is the best handling 4WD, I've never seen one in
trouble. The Bronco, Explorer, Trooper and Pathfinder are among the
worst. Vans aren't so great either the Mazda 4WD van of the 90s being
very bad for handling.
Following these vehicles on dry curves I often see the drivers having
trouble maintaining a constant track, having to correct the track often.

In the late 80s I hit glare ice braking to turn into the Whistler
village, my Chrysler Le'Baron without ABS locked it's wheels on the
slightest touch of the brakes, but it maintained it's straight ahead
track and I was able to slow enough to turn off the highway.
I had to speed up a bit just as I was turning right, because I noticed
in my rear view mirror the rear of a dam Bronco which had done a 180 and
was closing on me. >

 

Take a cooked piece or spaghetti and try to move it by pushing on the
end. What happens? Now try to move it by pulling on the end. What
happens. Can you apply this information to FWD versus RWD on snow?

 

I'll keep this in mind if I ever try to drive in spaghetti. In the emantime
don't underestimate 5000 lbs and good big-ass tires in snow. I swear the 300SD
will drive through snow banks slowly chugging away.