Caravan COLD Engine Oil Leak?? Help!!

Hi everyone,


I know that this is the "Chrysler" group, but unfortunately there is
only like 10 people posting in the "Dodge" group, so I will still try to
get some info. here from any mechanics in the group.


I am hoping that someone can help me out here and try to solve "a big
mystery" that none of my mechanics can seem to solve.


I have a 1995 Dodge Caravan with 170,000 thousand miles. Its the 3.0L V6
engine. A little over a month ago, the car developed a MAJOR oil leak,
where oil would basically just POUR out of the engine. The car would
lose about 1 quart of oil every 5 minutes the engine was running.


My regular mechanic of 10+ years was "positive" that it was the "rear
main seal" and he doesn't do major engine work anymore, so he
recommended some other guy that I never heard of or went to before.


Anyway, I brought the car there, and the guy looked at it, and he said
that the "crankshaft seal" was totally gone, and that the car needed a
new "timing belt" as well. And sense I can't afford a new car right now,
because I am only working part-time, and need transportation, I told him
to fix it.


Plus, I was HOPING to get at least another year or two out of this car,
because 2 years ago, I spent $2,000 dollars for a rebuilt transmission
when the tranny went out, and last year I spent $800 dollars for a new
fuel pump, and another $800 dollars on all new brakes and rotors! So in
the last 2 years alone, I have sank $3,600 into this car!!!!


It took 2 days, and the cost was $800 bucks!!! So, I bring the car home,
and find out that now, the engine is completely doing something else.
What happens now, is that now the engine is leaking oil when the engine
is COLD. When you 1st start the car and the engine is cold, oil DRIPS
out. As the engine warms up, the leak slows down, and stops after the
engine gets hot.


So I bring it back to the guy, and leave it there for another 2 days,
and he calls me back and tells me that he "CAN'T find anything wrong
with it, and doesn't see it dripping any oil", but yet charges me
another $50 bucks to look at it.


So Monday night I put a piece of cardboard under there. Tuesday morning
I go to start it up, and sure enough drip, drip, drip for about 10
minutes until coming to a stop.


Tuesday night I do the same thing, and put a new piece of cardboard
there, and this morning I start it up, and once again drip, drip, drip,
for about 5-10 minutes until the engine gets warm.


So I call the guy back, and told him that its still dripping when cold,
and he says "That's strange", he never heard of anything like this
before?? So now he wants me to drop it off again for another couple of
days so that he can "look at it again"??


So does anybody know what the heck is going on here, and what the big
"MYSTERY" is??? Why does the engine leak oil when cold, and then stop
leaking oil after it warms up?


Does the "crankshaft seal" need time to expand or something??


Any info. and or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated!!!!


Thanks!

 

From my experience, the 3.0 is one of the most leak prone engines that
Chrysler ever used.

Having said that, have you looked to see where the oil is coming from?
If it is coming from the left side (engine rear), it could be that the
rear seal was not installed correctly. Also, these engines use seals
on the valve covers ends that can cause leaks.

I agree in that it is something that is expanding once warmed up,
which stops the leak. Leaks can also develop from the valve cover
gaskets themselves.

The brake and fuel pump work that you had done seems high. I had a
fuel pump replace a few years ago. It was $120 for the pump, with
another $100 in labor to install it.

Good luck,

KM

 

Hi KM,


Thanks for the response, I really do appreciate it! If you are standing
at the bumper facing the engine, the oil drip is coming from the left
side somewhere under where the belt is at. You CAN'T see the leak from
the top of the engine.


When the car is running, and you look under the engine, you can see the
oil dripping when the engine is cold, but you can't really see where its
coming from unless the car is up on a lift, or if you crawl under it
with eye goggles on or something.


It is coming from the same spot as it was before this guy replaced the
"crank seal" when the oil was pouring out when the engine was running.


Also, the guy who did the repair didn't replace the "rear main seal", he
replaced the "crank seal" and "timing belt".


I let the car sit for about an hour after letting it warm up this
morning, and started it up again, and there was about 3-6 more drips,
and then it stopped. So the colder the engine is, the more it leaks. The
warmer the engine is, the less it leaks?


So, do you think this guy installed the "crank seal" or "timing belt"
wrong?? Should I bring the car back to him when he had it for 2 whole
days a few days ago, and claimed that he "can't find anything wrong with
it"??


And yes. last year my regular mechanic of 10+ years did charge me $800
bucks to replace the fuel pump!!! He said that it was located in the gas
tank, and that he had to drain out all the gas, and take the whole fuel
tank apart, and that it was "very labor intensive".


Then when my brakes started to go, he charged me another $800 for all
new brakes and rotors!!! And the year before that I spent $2,000 to have
the tranny rebuilt.


So now I have spent like $4,400 dollars on this stupid car in 3 years,
when its probably got a "Kelly Blue Book" value of what $500 bucks!?

 

First off - Dodge is a division of Chrysler - so your OK here.

1. Rear main seal is one of the two crank seals - there's a front one
and a rear one. So it's not clear from what you've posted which he did.
Of course doing the front main seal would have been easier while doing
the timing belt, but of course wouldn't fix the problem if it was the
rear that is leaking.

2. $800 for a brake job? Wow!

3. Besides things already mentioned, check the oil pressure switch
(located down low on the side of the engine - not sure which side on
that one) - they can leak.

4. A clogged up PCV hose or valve can make oil come out of the engine
like you wouldn't believe, and out of the strangest places (like up and
out of the dipstick tube). When's the last time the PCV valve was
replaced and the hoses checked/cleaned/replaced as needed?

Also - for anyone who cares - I normally don't top post, but it was
convenient to do so in this case. Don't like it? Tough.

 

Thanks for the info., I really do appreciate it! I don't know if it was
the front or rear crank seal? On the receipt it only states "Replace
Timing belt" and "Replace Crank Seal".


So I don't know which one he replaced, but when the oil was pouring out,
it was coming out from the front of the engine, about 1 foot from the
front bumper.

 

Does it have an oil cooler?

 

Well he's not going to be able to fix it if it's sitting home in your
driveway. I would give him another chance to make it right. Take it
the night before so it will be good and cold when he looks at it. Make
arrangements to be there the next morning so you can point out the
leak and he can't miss it again.

Find a new regular mechanic.

Definitely time for a new regular mechanic. The trans might not be an
awful price but that is a crazy price on the brakes.

 

If by "front of the engine" you mean the forward most side of the engine
then it's probably the oil pressure sending unit that is leaking.

If "front of the engine" means the side with the belts/passenger side
then it's probably camshaft seals and/or crankshaft seal.

The person who did the work needs to recheck his work, adding some UV
dye to the oil and checking for leaks with the proper illumination lamp
would pin point the source of the leak.

 

One thing I did notice though, is that when I go to check the oil, I
notice that there is all kinds of little Black fragments in the oil on
the dipstick?? When I clean the dipstick off and check the oil again,
the little Black fragments are in the oil again??


Could this be a disintegrating gasket?

 

Well, I just started the car after letting it sit for a few hours, and
this time I looked under the car while the engine was running. The oil
looks to be dripping where the front "crankseal" and "timing belt" meet.
There is a pulley there ( which moves the timing belt ), and it seems to
be leaking right where that pulley is.


You can also see that the brand new timing belt is covered in oil. As
the engine warms up, the leak slows down and ALMOST comes to a stop,
even though it really just slows down to a slow oil drip.


But then when the engine gets warm, it looks to be leaking another slow
drip in a different spot, right above ( about 1/2 inch so ), above one
of the crank seal bolts.

 

That does sound like he screwed up the seal install. One thing, though,
an external belt will be an accessory belt. The timing belt will be
under a cover (and is also likely to be oil-soaked).

 

Hi,


Okay, I guess then its not the "timing belt", and must be some kind of
external belt. But it's the belt where the bottom pulley, is where he
replaced the "crank seal". The pulley looks to be located in between
where the front "crank seal" and external belt are. And the oil is
dripping right on the edge of where the pulley touches the "crank seal".


I did bring it back to the guy last weekend, and he kept the car there
for almost 3 days, and said that he "couldn't find anything wrong with
it".


Do you thing that he is just denying that there is something wrong with
it, because he didn't do the installation correctly and doesn't want to
now have to redo it for free?


He wants me to bring the car back to him and leave it there for another
couple of days so that he can "look at it again", but I won't be
surprised if he claims that he can't find the leak again.

 

sounds like he didnt get the front crank seal in correctly. or he tore it
putting the harmonic balancer back on. got a digital camera? I'd love to see
a picture from under there.

sounds like he is also denying the blunder because if he admits it he must
fix it again for free...at least that's how a lot of shops warranty their
labor.


I'd get another opinion from someone else.

 

FWIW this question is also posted in A.A.GM....

I wonder if it really needed a new tranny in the first place assuming it has
the A604/41TE in it. Shops still seem to replace the whole thing when all
that is wrong is Dexron poisoning, a speed sensor, or the solenoid pack.

 

Hello again Michelle. I tried to respond to your email, but it says
that your inbox is full.

I am concurring with many of the other responses, in that the seal may
not have been properly installed, or was the new seal was damaged
during installation. The shop should be willing to fix it and make it
right. Yes, they don't like to do this, but it is the cost of doing
business.

There is always small claims court if they are unwilling to fix it
right for you.

KM

 

Just wanted to give everyone another update and tell whats going on. I
brought the car back to the guy on Thursday afternoon, and he kept the
car there till Saturday afternoon.


Once again, he said that he checked the car for any oil leaks, but said
that he "couldn't find anything wrong with it".


Now, here is where it gets good. I specifically told this guy to leave
the car parked on the GROUND, and to put a piece of clean cardboard
under the engine, and then don't start the car until morning.


Well, he didn't do that, and mumbled something about "putting cardboard
under the engine got nothing to do with it", and he PUT THE CAR UP ON
THE LIFT so that he could get a "birds eye view".


Also, get this when this guy replaced the "crank seal" and timing belt,
he put 4 quarts of new oil in the engine, but DIDN'T replace the oil
filter!?


He said that "the oil filter looked pretty clean on the OUTSIDE so he
figured it was good". Which is NOT true, because actually the car was
OVERDUE for an oil change!!!


So get this, he tells me that it will cost me "another $20 dollars" for
him to change the oil filter which I believe SHOULD have been done the
first time when he charged me $850 for the "crank seal" and "timing
belt".


So, I said fine whatever, I'll pay the stupid $20.


I go to pick up the car today ( Saturday ), and when I get there, he
hands me a bill for $78 DOLLARS!!!!!! I was like "what the hell", and he
tells me that while the car was there, he "topped off all the fluids,
cleaned the brakes, and changed the spark plugs"!!!


I NEVER even asked for all that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The car was there so that he could fix the OIL LEAK!!!!!!! He told me
"Oh, the plugs looked old and dirty, so I changed them for you".


Then on my way home, I stop off at the grocery store to get some
groceries, and when I leave the grocery store about an hour later, the
car HAS A HARD TIME STARTING!!!


The when I get home, I look at the oil filter, and its some GENERIC one
that I never even heard of!? Its called "ProMotive Oil Filter".


This is just getting ridiculous!!!


I let the car sit for a few hours, and then put a clean piece of
cardboard under it, and start it up, and then sure enough drip, drip,
drip, for 5-10 minutes!!!!!!


Plus now the car is starting hard, which it sure didn't do 2 days ago!!!
I think this guy did something to it ON PURPOSE so that I have to bring
it back to him AGAIN for the 4th time in less than 2 weeks!!!!!


AND for those of you wondering "what kind of mechanic this guy is and
what kind of place he works at?".


The guy is a mechanic at a USED CAR DEALERSHIP!!!! And I am NOT talking
about some big name used car dealership, I am talking about one of those
small places on the side of the road that has like 10 cars maximum in
the lot.


The ONLY reason why I went to this guy was because my regular mechanic
"heard that the guy does engine work for cheap".


My regular mechanic of 10+ years knows that money is tight for me right
now because I am only working part-time, and he has HEARD from other
people that this other guy does engine work for about $400 or so. But my
regular mechanic DOESN'T ACTUALLY KNOW this other guy personally!!!!


Well, it looks like me regular mechanic was off by $400 bucks, because
this other guy charged me $850 for the "crank seal" and "timing belt".


Then he charges me another $20 to change the oil filter which should
have been done THE FIRST TIME, and he charges me $58 TO "TOP OFF THE
FLUIDS, CLEAN THE BRAKES, AND CHANGE THE PLUGS, WHICH I NEVER EVEN ASKED
FOR!!!!!!!!


Well, next week I am going to bring it to a new guy. A REAL mechanic at
a REAL auto repair shop, where my Aunt has been bringing her car for
years, and has been HAPPY with the service there.

 

I was getting ready to suggest that you cut your losses with that guy
and find someone else. Sounds like that's what you're doing. Life's to
short.

 

That has got to be the WORST criteria for choosing a mechanic.

 

Yeah, it looks like I learned THE HARD WAY!! But do you think he did
something else wrong, or on purpose, and thats why now it's having a
hard time starting?????

 

Oops - "Life's too short".