Built like a Mercedes (?)

I note that those figues assume the use of internal combustion engines for
traction.

How about electric trains ?

Graham

 

both the 12 valve and the 24 valve are well known and very respected
around here mate, primarily because they work well.

at least thats how we judge stuff here in the us old boy.

 

You seem to be beyond clueless to the fact that these American
full-sized diesel pickups do their job while still getting order-of 15
mpg at gross weights of >15,0000 pounds. They've been common-rail
injecte turbocharged for several years now, and before that were
typically HEUI types since the early '90s.

The rest of the (its lowercase, by the way) world doesn't do any better
than that.
..
More blather snipped

 

The number of kilowatts [horsepower] used is the same so it depends if the
power is generated from nuclear, orimultion, coal, oil, gas, hydro, wind,
solar or tidal. In effect you have to go with cost in that case, which is
the only important measure.

Huw
Huw

 

I must say that I am puzzled by your assertion as the numbers were taken
from 'official' websites. Why do you criticise them so?

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

 

I suspect it is purely because the numbers do not agree with his prior
claims but do agree with mine and your estimate. Simple as that.

Huw

 

I have posted the links to perfectly valid figures and will let the reader

Another failure to understand on your part. Its not a matter of opinion, the
numbers are what they are, you have none, and I've given plenty.

Average human weighs in at 200lbs. pile 40 of them in a rail car nd you have
"bulk transport." You've yet to prove that rail transpor is inefficent,
quite the opposite, you've proven nothing in that regard. As to cost, that
isn't a measure of efficiency, and I'm not saying building a rail line is
cheap. BUT... in the long term, it WILL save huge amounts of fuel, which was
the original point.

Sadly, your figures were not accurate, given the assumptions that were used
to arrive at those figures.

I've never commented on U.S. data on auto use, so assuming (once again) what
my opinion is would be just that, an assumption.

Without a thorough examination of any report that the U.S. Government
publishes, one has to take into account the funding source and the actual
data collection agency. Therefore, they are no more accurate than any other
study source, and possibly much more biased.


--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Boy is that ever the truth!!!

Roy

 

I note that those figues assume the use of internal combustion engines for

I'm not sure how energy consumption would be measured on these, given the
method of "fueling" them. I did a brief search, and found that most studies
measured kW usage over a year, rather than individual units.

This link provides details of the train weight and passenger loading on a
light rail system.
http://www.sacrt.com/lightrail.stm

I suggest that the lack of data for power use per train is because power use
varies widely based on load. Load would be difficult to determine, as it
would be unknown how many passengers were on an entire rail line at one
given time. Further complicting this, most electric transit systems have
multiple feed points or "substations". As such, it would be impossible to
measure all of these points and come up with an accurate estimate of the
power usage given the mobility of the consumption points. However, if you
find such data, I'd certainly like to see it.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

It is a simple information gathering exercise by a government department.

I have done exactly that in each case that I've commented upon. Please go
back and read.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

 

Do you abuse some kind of illegal substance?

Fuel use is well documented in the links I gave you or linked pages thereof.
It is substantially, very substantially in favour of buses and even private
cars. There can be no rational dispute of this.
Here are the figures copied below so that the lazy or plain stupid can read
them with the minimum of effort.

Network South East – 108 passenger-miles per gallon,
Regional services – 123 passenger-miles per gallon,
Intercity - 123 passenger-miles per gallon,
System wide average – 115 passenger miles per-gallon. - Similar to a diesel
powered car containing two people but much less than the 200 passenger–miles
per gallon available from an express coach with 20 aboard doing 10 miles per
gallon.



Note that the coach [bus] is less than half full. These coaches have 55
seats or more.

What assumptions do you dispute. If the coach/bus were used at a higher
capacity the figures would be even more in favour of them. All the
assumptions are made in favour of the train in order to underline just how
much more efficient the bus is despite assumptions leaning towards train.

I have given you links. If the data is too complex for you to manage that is
your problem. For you to doubt the data accuracy is plain silly. There is no
possible agenda that would justify your doubt.
The plain truth is that it does not agree with your view and therefore you
will not accept its validity.
Children usually grow out of this at by the time they reach their teens.

Huw

 

You are obviously a fantasist.

Huw

 

Parameters for conversion of GW-h to litres and gallons are as follows:
1. Power stations are 37% efficient (up from 35 in 1990) [Source is
Table 5.5 of the digest of United Kingdom Energy Statistics”].
2. Transmission losses amounted to 4% [Transport-watch assumption].
3. The net calorific value of diesel is 42.9 Giga-joules per Tonne and
the specific gravity is 0.84.
4. One gallon equates to 4.546 litres
5. Hence one GW-h is equivalent to (3600 x 1000)/(0.37 x 0.96 x 42.9 x
0.84) = 0.281 million litres of diesel burnt in buses or to 0.06187 million
(imperial) gallons.

If you had read and understood the information I provided you would not need
to ask the question.
It ends up with undisputed figures for the UK of a best of an equivalent of
123 passenger miles per gallon on intercity electrified routes with local
services falling to a low of 108.

Huw

 

now that is a hoot. a person from the uk, complaining about the us,
calling that guy from the us a fantasist. huw, just the fact that you
are here bitching about the us shows you and pooh butt to be the
biggest fantasists in existance today. to believe that you uk guys
can even play in the same league as us us guys proves that. i mean,
come on. what has the uk done, other than provide a rather basic
testing ground for dental hygiene? you wanna bitch about our car
industry? what has the uk ever provided? oh yeah, electronics by
lucas, the prince of darkness. oh, an triumph, the bike that helped
invent the mighty wipe. look, we can't use your industry as a bad
example, because you don't have any. so, while i understand you
coming on and complaining about the us to take your mind off of the
uk, don't lose perspective.

and pooh bear wanting to rip on our military. hey, again, at least we
have one. i am sure it won't be long before you see proof of that,
since we will probably have to come over and save your sorry asses
again.

geezz, come on. your envy is showing huw.

 

From: http://www.rco.on.ca/factsheet/fs_b02.html#Canada/ Canadians

Comparisons

A commuter train carrying 80 passengers requires roughly 710 British
thermal units (Btu) of energy per passenger per mile, and a trolley
with 55 passengers uses around 1,050 Btu per passenger mile, and a one
person car, some 7,380.
Public transport also saves valuable city space. Buses and trains
carry more people in each vehicle, and if they operate on their own
right-of-way (particularly in underground tunnels), can safely run at
much higher speeds. An underground metro can carry 70,000 passengers
past a certain point in a single lane in one hour, surface rapid rail
can carry up to 50,000 people, and a trolley or a bus in a separate
lane more than 30,000. A lane of private cars with four occupants, by
contrast, can move only about 8,000 people per hour. ["Out of the car,
into the future" by Marcia D. Lowe. WW, Nov/Dec 1990]

 

Also from:
http://www.rco.on.ca/factsheet/fs_b02.html#Canada/ Canadians

Costs

Few U.S. drivers realize that, including fuel, maintenance, insurance,
depreciation, and finance charges on their cars, they pay $34 for
every 100 miles of driving. On a yearly basis, it costs the average
solo commuter nearly $1,700 just to get to work. By contrast, the
average public transport fare is $14 per 100 miles. ["Out of the car,
into the future" by Marcia D. Lowe. WW, Nov/Dec 1990]
The first step is to bring to light the hidden costs of driving, such
as air pollution, municipal services, and road construction and
repair. Perhaps least-recognized of these public expenses are items
such as police, fire, and ambulance services required for an
automobile-centered system. According to an analyses of the salaries
and personnel time of the Pasadena Police Department in California, 40
percent of department costs are from accidents, theft, traffic
control, and other automobile-related items. Extending this finding to
the entire United States suggests that local governments spend at
least $60 billion on automobiles. Employer-provided free parking (a
tax-free fringe benefit) represents another huge subsidy to drivers,
variously estimated to be worth an additional $12 to $50 billion a
year. ["Out of the car, into the future" by Marcia D. Lowe. WW,
Nov/Dec 1990]
The Metro Toronto Board of Trade calculates that traffic congestion
costs two billion dollars per year to Ontario businesses. [Ross
Snetsinger, portfolio; found in: "Transporting Ourselves to Economic
Growth" by Sue Zielinski: facts.html at www.kows.web.net]
The United States spends nearly $200 million per day building and
rebuilding roads [Paving Moratorium; found in: "Transporting Ourselves
to Economic Growth" by Sue Zielinski: facts.html at www.kows.web.net]
The Ontario Ministry of Transportation has estimated that the societal
costs of automobile accidents causing injury and death exceed $1.9
billion per year, including health costs, policing, repairs, lost
wages, and other impacts. This is equivalent to roughly $380 per
taxpayer per year. [Udo Stillich, p. 11; found in: "Transporting
Ourselves to Economic Growth" by Sue Zielinski: facts.html at
www.kows.web.net]

 

Also from:
http://www.rco.on.ca/factsheet/fs_b02.html#Canada/ Canadians

Energy

The energy equivalent of 575,000 barrels of oil a day are required to
produce 10 million cars in the U.S. . [Greenpeace International (1991)
found in: "The Recycling of Automobiles: A Study of the Scope of the
"by Mike Carriere / file industry sectors automotive]
DOT (Department of Transportation [U.S.]) says the average one-way
commute is about 10 miles. To accomplish this flat, a 3000- pound car
with a single occupant uses about 65,000 BTUs of energy. It would be
roughly 3,5 times more energy-efficient to travel in a four-person
carpool; 7 times more efficient to go by bus; 35 times more efficient
to go by subway; 60 times more efficient to go by train. ["Motion
sickness" Friends of the earth. Vol. 21 No. 2 Spring 1991]
It has been estimated that between 66 and 105 gigajoules of energy are
needed to produce a motor vehicle, depending on the proportion of
recycled materials used. This is equivalent to the energy contained in
between 2000 and 3000 l of gasoline, or the amount of fuel consumed by
16000 to 26000 km of driving. [A state of the Environment Fact Sheet
No. 93-1 "Environmental implications of the automobile" Environment
Canada therein: References: Jacques, A. 1992 Canada’s greenhouse gas
emissions for 1990. Ottawa: Environment Canada, Conservation and
Protection]
A comparison of energy use by transportation mode

Transportation mode
Fuel electricity use (L/100 km)
Number of commuters
Energy use (MJ/person-km)

Automobile
10
7
1
4
1
4
3.16
0.79
2.21
0.55

Diesel bus
56
40
0.52

Subway
2.61 kWh/km
75 (per car)
0.13

 

You want more internet info????

From the same source:

Americans collectively drive nearly as much as the rest of the world
combined. Not only are they the biggest travelers on the planet, they
travel interplanetary distances. In 1990 the U.S. auto and truck fleet
will travel two trillion miles, the distance to the planet Pluto and
back, 364 times.
One - half of all Americans have put two cars in their garage. ["Cars
sick automobiles ad nauseam" by Robert Schaeffer in Greenpeace Vol. 15
No. 3 May/ June 1990]

 

Some representative day trips in North America
Selected from :
John Cletheroe's
USA and Canada Holiday Hints


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feasible One Day Journeys By Car In The USA And Canada


have had many people ask how far it is possible to travel by car in
one day in the USA and Canada.
On rural Interstates you can safely assume an average speed of 60mph
over a long distance, but on US Highways and state highways it is much
more difficult to give a figure since the quality and nature of the
roads can vary (although most are excellent). Also, you may wish to
stop to look round towns or admire views, and you may encounter the
occasional delay due to "construction" (road works). A safe working
figure for an average speed on open roads in the west is probably
around 50mph, but rather lower through towns, over mountain passes,
etc. Due to the greater number of towns overall speeds on normal roads
tend to be less in the east than in the west.

Alpine, Texas to Dalhart, Texas (480 miles)

A fascinating ride as the country changes from the mountainous area
near Alpine to the flat lands of the Texas panhandle.

Baker, Oregon to Jackson, Wyoming (525 miles)

Via Challis this is a very long trip - about the limit of what is
viable in one day. Using the Interstate for the majority of the trip
would probably make it much more acceptable in terms of journey time.

Bishop, California to St George, Utah (430 miles)

Via US395 South to Big Pine, over the mountains via a fairly slow back
road to US95, south to Las Vegas, then I-15 North to St George. A long
trip.

Craig, Colorado to Jackson, Wyoming (340 miles)

A fairly long trip. Rock Springs is a good place to stop for lunch.

Flagstaff, Arizona to Las Vegas, Nevada (246 miles)

An easy trip.

Flagstaff, Arizona to Los Angeles, California (467 miles)

Los Angeles, California to St George, Utah (410 miles)

An easy trip, especially if you start from the east side of Los
Angeles. Las Vegas is a convenient place to stop for lunch.

Lordsburg, New Mexico to Tucson, Arizona (200 miles)

A short trip, allowing time to visit both units of Saguaro National
Park near Tucson.

Logan, Utah to St George, Utah (383 miles)

A fairly long trip, with some heavy traffic likely on I-15 in the Salt
Lake City and Ogden area.

Jackson, Wyoming to Twin Falls, Idaho (305 miles)

A short trip.

Golden, British Columbia to Princeton, British Columbia (250 miles)

An easy trip.

Grand Marais, Minnesota to Minneapolis/St Paul, Minnesota (260 miles)

A fairly easy trip.

Helena, Montana to Jackson, Wyoming (410 miles)

Helena, Montana to Kalispell, Montana (234 miles)

An easy trip.

 

I see you've decided to clip my numbers without any cause, except to decieve
anyone reading your replies.

Here they are again:


WIDE open for an hour, making 2900+hp, a locomotive only burns 170gallons of
fuel.

With that kind of power, you can pull 4000 tons (40 rail cars) at 50 MPH no
problem. Thats 200,000 ton miles. A truck burning fuel at 5 MPG will go 850
miles on 170 gallons. Hauling 25 tons, thats 21,250 ton miles. If the
locomotive is operated properly it'll use less fuel, since it won't be wide
open 100% of the time.

Now, unless you can debunk these figures, or have a contradictory source, I
suggest you are the one with hot air in lieu of numbers.

Or maybe your "facts" are simply in the loo.

--
Max

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)