Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch

Per CNBC minutes ago, sales of the new sub-subcompacts from Japanese
manufacturers are exceeding expectations by a wide margin. These are
the Toyota Yaris, the Honda Fit and the Nissan Versa. Dealers cannot
keep these models on the lot, while Big 3 dealers' stock is growing
spider webs. As usual, the Big 3 has no competing product and is
stuck with huge back inventories of gas guzzlers of all descriptions.

This will embolden the Chinese to start taking a run at the US market
with their Chery sub-subcompact, giving the Big 3 even more to worry
about. Other sales figs show that Hyundai/Kia are making huge gains
in market share against the Big 3, especially in the "crossover" SUV
market, the "small truck" SUV market (their "Sportage" is selling big)
and in the "intermediate" sedan market with the Hyundai Sonata.
Meanwhile, the Big 3 are stuck with over 200 days of inventory on
hulking gas guzzling trucks and outsized SUVs, notably GM, who can't
even give them away at below wholesale.

Look for GM to discontinue the Tahoe/Denali and Suburban and cloned
Cadillac Escalade probably this or next year along with the virtually
useless Chevy Avalanche. Ford has already cut back production of the
Expedition/Navigator and Explorer/Mountaineer and is discontinuing the
fanciful Lincoln pickup truck, whose sales are almost non-existant.
Ford has a huge surplus of F-150s and has cut back second shift
operations at the Rouge plant's F-150 line. One bright spot for GM:
the new Pontiac-badged "crossover" SUV is selling somewhat well,
although with pricing incentives that GM cannot long afford.

Not all's well for Japan, Inc., however. Sales of the big Nissan
SUVs, such as their flagship (and it IS a boat, complete with 1959
Rambler roofline) Armada are as bad as the Big 3's, and the Toyota
Tundra and Nissan Titan aren't selling well at all, notably the
Nissan. Japan, Inc.'s target market for these vehicles was Texas, but
it's not working out for them. Look for the Tundra to go the way of
the failed T100. Nissan has already announced that the Titan will
undergo a "downsizing" in its next model cycle. This doesn't make
much sense, since that market is covered by their Frontier model,
which also isn't selling well.

 

The Japanese manufacturers now build a lot of cars for the U.S. market
on U.S. soil. They don't have to contend with the labor problems that
the big three do. It's going to be hard for the "big 3" to beat them. I
read in Time magazine that it cost G.M. over 1 billion to shut down
Oldsmobile, because of the agreement that they had with U.A.W regarding
plant closures.

I know many people that have bought Camrys for the past 20 plus years.
They are hard to beat for reliability.

-KM

 

....meaning they predatorily take advantage of weak, unenforce labor
laws in the US to their own advantage...and the disadvantage of US
workers. How nice.

Shutting down the Olds marque was another stupid move by GM. Rather
than take the lead of a fine first attempt to reinvigorate the brand
with the Aurora, they followed up with some typically badge engineered
crap like the Intrigue and Alero, and lost even more sales.

Don't blame labor for GM management's screw ups. And yes, if we had a
government that was responsive to needs of the US middle class, Jap
cars built in the US would disappear overnight. But that won't
happen, since the idiots who run GM and did run Ford wouldn't know
what to do to fill the market. The new Boeing guy running Ford MAY be
their salvation...too soon to tell. One thing's for sure...the board
MUST disconnect the Ford family from corporate operations, or all is
lost.

For around 90-100K miles, yes...then, you simply throw them away.

 

For around 90-100K miles, yes...then, you simply throw them away.[/QUOTE]

Ah, no. You replace the timing belt and water pump (and an
occasional evap canister) and run 'em another 100K.

 

Bob, you gotta be kidding about that statement above.
I appreciated your knowledge on transmissions but you really don't
know much about Japanese cars or your thinking is fanciful.

I've never known Camrys to NOT go 150,000 with 200K being the usual.
Hondas and Nissans are the same. Why do you think they enjoy such a
rock solid reputation for durability?
One can always quote occasional misteps they've had in one or two
models but overall their reputataion for LONG TERM reliability is
bulletproof. And so the American consumer has responded.

My old '87 Honda Accord, while showing some rust (I keep it as a
backup car) has an engine that runs like a watch at 180,000 miles.
A friend's Camry is similar as are most that I know.

I hope my 2002 Caravan does as well...

Doug

 

Not just the USA, within NAFDA- the USA, Canada and Mexico.

True.
Only idiot management signs a contract paying almost full wages for many
years after a lay off. Surely they must have realized this was only a
short term gain and it would catch up with them or did they really think
they would grow production volumes enough to use all the workers?

 

My b.s. detector just went off.

No, TrollBobSquarepants - it means that they don't do suicidal things
like GM did years ago like sign agreements with unions that say that if
a supplier or someone within GM comes up with an idea on a subassembly
that will save GM money by eliminating a warm body on GM's existing
production line, the idea could *not* be implemented, whereas a
competitor could realize those cost savings on their line if similar
types of efficiency improvements were identified. Search my past posts
on GM's PICOS program which I had first-hand experience with.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Listen to this CROCK OF SHIT- DeserTBob drives a fucking 1978 HONDA
SHITBOX, he hates AMERICAN CARS, and all of a sudden he's putting down
Toyota...

why ??

I showed him what pristine vintage American cars sell for at current
auctions

like this one on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...RK:MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=260042363195&rd=1,1

so now he's WHINING like the Liberal panzy he is, saying the American
middle class needs a car...

yet he can't afford to put GAS in a good car, because he's unemployed
and on SSI benefits, and lazy, and useless

now, if the "big three" are doing so "bad", why do they still hold
positions #1, #3, and #5 on the mfg. list ?? see it HERE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orld_Motor_Vehicle_Production_by_Manufacturer

why do the big three own JAGUAR- VOLVO- SAAB- OPEL- MAZDA- LAND ROVER-
ASTON MARTIN- and many other overseas companies ? SEE IT BELOW:

1. General Motors (United States) - 9,040,309 vehicles
Buick United States Division Near-luxury North America
Cadillac United States Division Luxury North America / Europe
Chevrolet United States Division Mainstream North America
Daewoo Korea Subsidiary Entry-level Asia / Europe (as Chevrolet)
GMC United States Division Truck North America
Holden Australia Subsidiary Mainstream Australia
Hummer United States Division Luxury Truck North America / Europe
Opel Germany Subsidiary Mainstream Continental Europe
Pontiac United States Division Performance North America
Saturn United States Division Entry-level North America
Saab Automobile Sweden Subsidiary Near-luxury Europe/North America
Vauxhall United Kingdom Subsidiary Mainstream United Kingdom

3. Ford Motor Company (United States) - 6,418,416 vehicles
Aston Martin United Kingdom Subsidiary Luxury / Performance Global
Ford Motor Company United States Division Mainstream Global
Jaguar United Kingdom Subsidiary Luxury Europe/North America
Land Rover United Kingdom Subsidiary Luxury Truck Global
Lincoln United States Division Luxury North America
Mercury United States Division Near-Luxury North America
Volvo Cars Sweden Subsidiary Near-Luxury
Mazda



DESERTBOB is a DUMB ASS !

 

(laughter..) trollboobshitpants, that's too funny !! BWAHAHAHAHAHA !!

Bill- heads up- BOOB was a union worker who got AXED by Bell Telephone,
he was a "phone guy" who's job was OUTSOURCED- so he dreamed up some
lame-assed excuse to go on DISABILITY, and is collecting SSI checks- he
can't afford to fuel an American car, and he still drives a 1978 HONDA
shitbox some relative gave to him.

all of a sudden, it's all the big 3's fault, that he can't afford gas,
and is a financial failure in life...

I'd tell him, drive a Honda, get hurt, lose your prestige, don't come
crying to me !

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

 

The UAW agreements were based on an ever-growing industry and world
domination of same, both of which are turning out be false.
Mismanagement at the Big 3, notably at GM and Ford, and non-existant
trade barriers to predatory foreign invaders is finishing them off.
You can blame NAFTA for part of GM's woes, too...they've been
assembling Chevies in Mexico for many years, and the poor quality
assembly and high failure rate on Mexican built product has been one
of GM's big headaches since doing so. Poor "maquiladora" quality
assembly also bit Borg-Warner in the ass, as well, and drove them out
of the automotive guage business in the '80s and '90s.

Had the Big 3 responded properly to the Japanese threat in the '70s,
there would be no discussion about the UAW agreements now. They made
their own bed in the muck, and now they're wallowing in it. However,
since top management always has the bully pulpit, they blame all their
miscues on labor...it's easy to do, and since they control the media
through huge advertising campaigns, the other side of the story is
rarely heard. That's also a reason why the Japanese, especially
Toyota, have been able to "program" clueless US buyers...massive,
hyped media campaigns. Now, with multi billion dollar losses a
reality, Ford and GM can't even keep up with the Japanese's ad
campaigns. Ford's has been a complete disaster, focusing on unwanted
SUVs, especially from the L-M division. Only recently have they begun
selling their Focus line, as unprofitable as it is, in TV ads, and the
ads aren't what you'd call "convincing." Ditto the roll-out campaigns
for the now-floundering 500 and Fusion. Meanwhile, every cable
channel flogs Toyota this and that seemingly every 10 minutes! There
are even more Subaru and Mazda ads on TV than Big 3 ads!

Don't blame the worker...he's just getting what he can get to survive,
and GM and Ford's management were delusional enough to go along. The
guys at the top are the ones responsible, just like Bush Bird is
responsible for the Iraq disaster and the new "phony" economy.
Unemployment figures too high? Just delete those guys who haven't
been working for 90 days...that'll fix it! New jobs? Oh yeah, lots
of new jobs...at minimum wage and no benefits! People who believe
Bush would tend to believe Toyota's ad campaigns..."sheeple."

And just remember this: If it weren't for the UAW and Doug Fraser
sitting on Chrysler's board, there wouldn't be a Chrysler ANYTHING
today. The bankers, Wall Streeters and Republipedoes in Washington
all wanted Chrysler to go into bankruptcy and liquidatation...or don't
you remember that part?

 

89 Honda Accord here, daily driver with 238,000 miles and no sign of
stopping any time soon.

I've had lots of Caravans that went well over 200,000 miles.

I think that this is just another case of brand loyalty and the natural
but irrational human desire to be better than the other guy. History is
full of good cars, bad cars, and in between cars. I don't think any
company or nation has a monopoly on good or bad cars. I wouldn't take a
Neon if you gave it to me because it's a piece of crap. But I like the
Caravan. So is Chrysler a bad car maker or a good one?

I think that people just like to complain.

 

It would be hard to determine whether unuin labor or stupid management
is the bigger problem in the American automotive industry. I worked for
a short time in a union shop about 15 years ago. They were the laziest
bunch of worthless idiots I've ever met. Incidentally, we were not auto
workers, we were aircraft mechanics represented by the Teamsters union,
believe it or not. What a joke. I don't trust union leadership as far
as I can throw them. The hardest work they ever did was in their effort
to make sure nobody ever did any real work, and they stood in the way of
anything that was good for the company or the aircraft. In one case,
management fired an incompetent mechanic three times and the Teamsters
had him reinstated, until management finally gave up. Guess what, the
company went out of business and we all lost our jobs. Yay union! Of
course, management at that company was not without blame. They used to
throw man-hours at a job thinking that they could get it done faster
with more mechanics. They would regularly assign 6 mechanics on one
shift to put panels in the baggage bin of a 737, even though only two
men could fit in there and get any work done. That's like asking 9
women to have a baby in one month. As far as I can tell, the worst
offender was the union, which actively encouraged everybody to do only 2
hours of work in an 8 hour shift.

Who says we needed to keep Chrysler around? Did you ever wonder what
happened to the real American dream? That's the one where if you don't
like the way things are you take the initiative to build a better
company and a better product yourself. Why is it that laborers would
prefer to make rules that say somebody else has to pay them a fortune,
rather than build their own car factory and do it the way they think it
should be done? We would be better off with 20 car manufacturers rather
than just the Big 3. Figure out why it is that that doesn't happen, and
I think you'll be closer to what the real problem is in this country.
You'll likely find that it has been made impossible to get started in
heavy industry because of collusion between existing companies and
various government agencies. We would be better served by addressing
this issue rather than concerning ourselves with the ridiculous labor
agreements, management decisions, and business precedents in existing
heavy industries.

 

I agree. The Camry and Accord owners that I referred to in an eariler
post, got fed up with the quality problems of the American cars back in
the late 1970's and early 1980's, so they switched to Japanese and have
never given American vehicles another chance. I still see a lot of
Chrysler minivans on the road from the begining models through the
mid-1990's.

I bought a Dodge Stratus over a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry because
the price was better.

-KM

 

Exactly. It's a maxim of marketing that a pissed off customer
requires about nine times more expenditure in advertising and "give
backs" to win back after being treated shabbily or being sold junk
than a "new" customer. AT&T learned that the hard way, and it was
their downfall.

Seen yesterday while shopping: An original T115 Caravan, still
plodding along. Clear coat was almost all gone, but it was still
soldiering on and seemed to be running just fine. I see those a lot,
see K-cars much less often, and rarely see an F-body...but I see them
now and then, too.

Another mistaken paradigm of American buyers is that Japanese makes
cost less. They certainly do not, especially Hondas now. The
Japanese know how this customer-supplier relationship works and know
very well how customers are "programmed" (they should...we taught them
how to do it) and are riding the high price wave as long as they can.
Once Ford or GM starts to fight back in earnest, they'll engage in a
price war similar to what GM and Ford got into in the early 1950s. It
was that price war that almost killed off Chrysler then, almost killed
off Packard, drove Nash and Hudson into a protective AMC, and woke
Chrysler management up to the need for Virgil Exner's styling excesses
and their superior V8s, and it kept them afloat long enough until they
could really start to fight back in the '60s. With Toyota and Honda
being cash-rich, I don't think the current Ford or GM has the cash on
hand to win such a war of attrition without getting into serious debt,
with the attendant "junk bond" status of their short term debt rating.
GM's already there now, with Ford right behind them.

Another fly in the ointment in this type of war is the Koreans, who
are underselling everybody with dubious, but cheap, vehicles. If the
Chinese get into the act with the Chery sub-subcompact (and word is
they will), it's all over for the low end of the market, and GM and
Ford will be squeezed in the middle with no market.

Instead of concentrating on fighting this economic war front with the
Asians, our dear dyslexic moron president and his administration
preferred instead to go into Iraq to show Daddy that Junior can do
whatever he wants!

Back to the Stratus, I have a neighbor with one. His previous car was
a Honda Accord, and he couldn't justify the price of a new one over
the Stratus. So far, 125K miles, a TCM flashing, and that's been all
that he's had to do outside of normal maintenance. His Accord had, as
he put it, "body integrity problems."

 

I agree, the same problem exists in MOST industries, however I can
tell you what the real problem is.

No, that won't help. The single reason that we have so much
consolidation among industries is the fault of the consumer being,
in a word, fucking stupid ignorant and happy to be that way.

Most people do not know much about how cars work and don't
want to lift a finger to educate themselves. As long as that continues
the ignorant consumers will buy the most popular sellers, figuring
that they are not going to make a mistake buying "what everyone
else buys"

If you take a look at industries where people DO actually take the
time to learn about the product, you see a radically different picture,
with very healthy competition. For example, the beer industry has
much competition because people take the time to try out different
beers until they find ones they like. The movie industry has hundred
of studios competing against each other because the consumers take
the time to learn about movies. The fitness industry had a lot of
competition because people will learn about different gyms and
workout places. There are thousands of different competing home
builders because people will take the time to learn about differences
in homes they buy. And so on and so on.

You are dead right that unhealthy industries do not have a lot
of competition. But, competition can only happen when people
are willing to spend money on products from many different
competitors, and they are only willing to do this when they are
informed consumers. And, consumers choose to be informed
or not. The majority of consumers have chosen not to be
informed about products like cars, gasoline, milk, and so on,
that is why there's not a lot of competition in those products,
and what competition there is, is heavily weighted on price.

Ted

 

You know no more than the stupid mgnt of the Big 3.

 

Their shareholders, their employees, their customers, their
suppliers...just the fabric of society in general...had Chrysler been
allowed to go under, as the "laissez-faire" RayGun right wingtards and
their pals at GM wanted it to do, the First RayGun Recession would've
be a helluva lot worse than it was, and it was bad enough as it was,
even worse than the Nixon Recession of '74.

Why don't you read up on how RayGun handler and stock market
manipulator Donald Regan held up Chrysler back in '83 for stock
warrants? Part of that was Iacocca's fault for not catching the
warrant problem before it became a problem, something he admitted
later. However, he was rightly furious at the RayGun Rightards for
holding up a recovering corporation for $331M in windfall profits that
Regan and other no-goods in the RayGun Adminstration used to "pad"
RayGun's dizzying deficit numbers. Regan's response to Iacocca was
"We don't care about results. We're ideologically opposed to this
bailout." What an idiot, and what idiots Americans were for electing
that doddering old fool, not once, but twice.

A truly stupid statement. Ever hear of "division of labor?"

Obviously that doesn't work, either, as the last of the "independents"
was gobbled up by Chrysler in the '80s, and that was an amalgam of
failing smaller independents that came together at the same time that
another failing independent, Studebaker, gobbled up a failed
independent, Packard.

Keep deluding yourself.

Much truth to that. That's why so many idiots shop for Chinese made
crap at Wally-Fart. They're stupid, and don't know any better, and
don't have the brains to improve. Also, note the big nose dive
Wally-Fart has been taking, along with the bad news on same store
sales. Reason? A lot of the 'tards who shop at Wally-Fart are tax
cheats in the "underground economy," such as unemployed eBayers. Now
that the whole eBay thing is collapsing, they've lost their tax free
income stream, and can't go buy the crap at Wally-Fart. Sweet
revenge, indeed...served cold..

These are all pretty big stretches made to make a point, but the point
is well taken that of all the world's consumers en masse, Americans
are about the dumbest.

Like the aerospace industry, but that's forcibly supported by
unwilling taxpayers beat over the head with fear by shill politicians,
like the one in the Oval Office now. If US aerospace companies
weren't on the taxpayers' tits, they'd collapse in about six months.

Milk's milk. The only competition there is from soy products, which
ARE making a big dent in milk producers' sales due to informed
consumers. However, the same consumers who will take the time to
learn about benefits of soy won't spend the time necessary to figure
out which computer's motherboard is better than another, or which car
is better than another, because it's "too much work." Sometimes
"dumb" is just another expression of "lazy."

This is even happening among more educated, more intelligent consumers
now, due to the Korporate Amerikan drive toward abolishing the 40 hour
week, the 8 hour day, and adoption of a workaholic culture similar to
that in Japan. This is just management being greedy. Any number of
studies show that such "workaholic" behavior doesn't boost true
productivity at all, but it makes the "numbers" look good, the very
same numbers the goverment uses to hype the supposedly great
productivity gains theUS supposedly made in the last 20 years.

 

Yeah I've heard of it. What about it? I think it's a great idea to run
one's own business. I'm starting one now myself, because I think it
would be stupid to wait for somebody else to get me where I want to go
in life. Referring to "division of labor" as if it were some treasured
way of life is stupid, in my opinion.

Here's an even more interesting take on the subject of stupidity and
division of labor. You go on and on about how stupid everybody else is,
which is an intriguing thing in itself. How did you get to be so much
smarter than the rest of us? Was it nutrition, or superior genetics, or
what? One way or another, you seem to think you're several times
smarter than everybody else in America. But you just might be
mistaken. What most hardheaded folks like you don't understand is that
those who disagree with you are not actually stupid, they just don't
agree. But back to the point at hand, regarding stupidity and the
division of labor. A division of labor promotes ignorance. People who
are so stupid that they don't know what a spark plug is are generally
very good at something else, which is generally what they do for a
living. In other words, they aren't really stupid. It is obvious to me
that a nation of renaissance men and women would be much more healthy,
wealthy and wise than a nation of drones who are all good at one thing
each. Naturally, I have done my share of single specialty jobs, but I
wouldn't want to stay with any of them for more than a few years.
Division of labor and specializing has given rise to our current
culture, wherein you are not supposed to question "experts". Hence, a
silly bureaucrat at the DFS can take your children away from you based
on their assessment of your parenting qualifications, many otherwise
intelligent people are at the mercy of the car mechanic and his $60/hr
shop rate, we're not supposed to question our expert "leaders" in the
White House (funny how they used to be called public servants), and
you're not supposed to be able to get a good job unless you cough up
thousands of dollars to give to the expert intellectuals at the
university for a diploma. Just do your job and don't ask any
questions. That's what the division of labor is all about. Or would
you rather people be better informed? Generally it doesn't tend to
happen both ways at the same time.

Now I suppose it's your turn to quote some drivel about Iaccoca from his
book, unless you have me in your killfile, in which case you'll have to
wait until somebody replies to me, and then you can tell me how stupid I
am.

 

GO ROBBIE!!

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

excellent reply Robbie- keep in mind, "DeserTBob" is an unemployed
liberal democrat on SSI, after his job was axed, and outsourced by Bell
Telephone. He was a loser "phone guy" you'd call, when you had no dial
tone and your phone didn't work. So instead of paying his leech
benefits and wages, they axed him. He deserved it, because in reality,
HE'S stupid. But notice how he twists it to be the system's fault.
the Boob has a degree from UCLA, in what we'll never know, perhaps in
Gay Sex Technology- but there's not much call for that in the paying
economy. So he sits and waits for his monthly checks, and trolls the
net. Boob is the textbook idiot extraordinaire.