a604 Limp, Rebuilt, Sensors replaced, solenoid replaced still Limps!

The dealership is going to give a loaner for a month for $800.00 of labor? I
don't think so! You see the problem is this guy has not taken it to the
Dealership, so effectively he is not " a good customer" So why is the
dealership going to bend over backwards and give a loaner for a month, and
only charge him $800?

 

My friend was not a longstanding customer of the GM dealer either.

Dealers charge PREMIUM DOLLAR. Basically, it was their fault that they
could not find the problem quickly. They were sure they would have had
the guys car working in a day or two. But the agreement was to provide
him a loaner car until his was fixed!

My friend did NOT just walkin and say give me a car for a month.
Techincally, it is not what he wanted. All he wanted was 1) wheels to
get to work, and 2) his car fixed right.

He did go to the dealership at my suggestion after seveal shops could
not find the problem. And I hear this more and more from independant
shops. I was having a problem with the ABS on my 94 Acclaim. And my #1
shop told me that there was ONE thing they would try to fix it, and if
that did not work they were refering me to the dealer because the DC
ABS system on the car was "a piece of crap".

Be that as it may, the dealers are the experts (supposedly). 5 star
dealers are supposed to get that rating for superior customer service.
So, if you are willing to pay the dealer service rate, and give them
the time required to properly service the car, then why would they not
welcome you and attempt to accomodate your needs???

After all, if they fix the car quickly and correctly, would you not
tend to become a return / repeat customer????

Dealers usually have a fleet of cars that are offered to customers as
loaners. It is a pure marketing write-off for them! They claim the
depreciation as a write-off, and sell the cars as "new" "used"
vehicles with full warranty for less, but they are not losing money!
The theory is that if you are getting your OLD car fixed (again) and
they give you this nice NEW car, some people are going to say "WOW, I
really like these new cars! Better gas mileage, nicer creature
comforts, easy to drive! I am tired of getting that old clunker fixed,
I'm going to trade it in on one of these!"

Lo and behold, if the new car is good, it can actually sell itself. It
is a salesmans dream! A satisified customer just walks in out of the
blue and says "I want it, now!". Sale is signed, sealed, and car
delivered with minimum work required. (ANother9one bites the dust!

Dealerships exist for two reasons: 1) to sell cars, and 2) to provide
service. It seems logical to me that is the service is good, then I
would tend to want to reward the good service with future business
either as repeast service, or when looking at new cars. A GOOD
dealership should not only know this, but should practice this. If a
dealer does not, then it is time to find a new dealer.

 

Damn, Bill, I suspected I had that screwed up. I could never remember
current flow direction in a diode.

That one I did remember, which is why I said to get the biggest wattage
you could fit in there.

I think the cost difference is under $5 between the two, and I've always
leaned toward massively derating replacement components that have
failed on the assumption that if they had been properly sized in the
beginning
they wouldn't have failed.

Only preferred if your manufacturing, where saving a buck or so on a
component means a huge amount.

Ted

 

Richard,

This is a 1995 car which is an OBD-1 not an OBD-II car. Autozone
was correct, (surprising) As the other
poster said you cannot get trans codes from the key on-off method
on this car.

Please review picture # 78 on the following pictorial that I created
last year:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com/94tcpics/project.html

See that scanner there, that OTC 4000E? That's an OBD-1 scanner.
Autozone does not sell these because when new they cost $2K and
it's been 11 years since a production vehicle used OBD-1 Nor do they
have them behind the counter.

Now, on the above pictorial please review pic #57. See the sensors
above that shiny box in the center? Those are the input and output
speed sensors. Notice how the input speed sensor is right under the
input and output lines for the tranny oil? That is a common leak point,
what happens is the rubber tranny lines soften and start weeping fluid,
the fluid wicks down to the input speed sensor and softens the
rubber, thus making the connections in the sensor become intermittent.

Get yourself some spray contact cleaner from an electronics store,
unplug those connectors and spray down each side really good to drive all
the oil out. Then use a small paperclip and insert it into each hole in the
plug to make sure that each contact has enough "grab" left to make a good
connection.

Now, follow the wires from those sensors up to the trans computer. There
are a couple places they pass very close to the exhaust manifold, make sure
they haven't come in contact and got burnt.

Now at the TCM take the big connector off and soak it and the plug down
with your spray contact cleaner.

When you first went to the dealer, they said the TPS, and the two sensors
were bad. They got that info by using a Chrysler scanner that can read
those codes. Have you done the analog voltmeter test on the TPS that I
told you to do yet?

Why are you at a loss? People have told you it's probably an intermittent
contact and to check the wiring harness and sensor connections, but at
no point have you said that you did so. You said you replaced the input
and output speed sensors and the problem didn't go away. Thus, the
old sensors were most likely not bad. Yet - the dealership told you they
got codes for failed sensors. So if the sensors wern't bad (as proved by
the substitution) and the TCM is saying they are bad, then the problem is
most likely between the TCM and the sensors, and that means all of the
wiring and contacts.

The TCM talks on the CCD bus and the engine computer in your car
does not, that is why there are 2 separate connectors for a scanner, one
for the CCD bus to read the TCM (and other devices that plug into the CCD
bus) and the other connector to talk to the engine computer.

Richard, I have spent probably close to $400 on my used OTC scanner,
plus about another $100 on a literal pile of factory service manuals for my
vehicles. With the labor I've put into my vehicles, those tools have paid
for themselves many times over, if I had paid a mechanic to do the amount
of work I've done.

Being able to do your own work diagnosing computerized vehicles means you
have to get the right tools to do it, it means you have to do some reading
and
learning. You so far aren't doing any of this, you are just trying to get a
lot of
people to make guesses for you. When people have suggested to you things to
do that appear to be difficult - like researching, getting a manual,
checking wiring,
and so on, you ignore those suggestions. When people have suggested
easy-to-do
things like replacing the TCM, replacing the alternator or battery, you have
jumped
at those ideas. It is no wonder your having problems, your whole approach
to troubleshooting is massively fucked in the head.

Ted

 

Richard - read my original reply.

Your symptoms are identical to mine : goes into limp; shut it down;
start it up and it's fine; might stay fine for a few minutes or even a
day; then it comes back, etc etc.
In my case the problem was fixed by replacing a wiring harness. The
dealer went through thousands of dollars of mechanical parts with no
effect before they finally nailed it as an electrical problem. This was
all 7 or 8 years ago so I no longer have the details about which harness.

The work was done at this dealer :

http://www.taylor.fivestardealers.ca/

Perhaps your dealer can get in touch with them for advice. The
Technical Dept for Chrysler Canada got involved with this one because it
was a warranty job and the car was Leased by G.E. Capital - and G.E.
carries a big stick.

Phil

 

Ted I have checked the contacts, and did so again last night. The
tranny shop allegedly did as well, I went as far last night as
removing the computer and burnishing the contact pins with a
scotchbrite pad.

I'm doing my best within my means however the best option for a quick
diagnosis may be purchasing a $4k scanner and trying to see the
problem happen however I cant do that. Maybe the following will make
you understand.

Hi Ted, my name is Richard. Just an average Joe trying to make ends
meet. I and my family live paycheck to paycheck so when something
catastrophic like this happens its devestating. Thus why I havent just
dropped it at a dealer and said 'fix it'. I cant afford that, I had to
get a loan to pay for the botched rebuild. Now my cash reserves are at
a minimum, every decision I make here counts. So far my car problems
have stranded my wife and kid at home for nearly two weeks and through
that cost my daughter the ability to get signed up for the dance
clases she wanted.

So again I say I am taking every possible suggestion that I can
afford. However so far I have had dodge dealer pull what to me nearly
amounts to bait and switch, a tranny shop pull some bullshit outta
their hat that they 'only fix transmission not the controls' despite
their assurance that if the rebuild didnt fix the issue they would
find it.

As for the cheap suggestions like TCM, Alternator, Battery the reason
I jumped on those is its very obviously either one of those or wiring.
Last night I tested the charging system on the way home. While idling
along at 35mph I Turned on every eletrical accessory in the car. I
also loaded the systm by running all 4 power windows are the same
moment, holding their switches in the close position while they were
fully closed. Nothing happened so to me this really leaves alternator
and battery out. So i am left with wiring and computer. If there is
something I am missing someone may correct me or they may not.

My approach to troublshooting is fairly logical, Ive done a lot of my
own automotive work over the past 20 years(the first serious piece of
work I did was rebuild an a904 tranny on my Dart that my dad gave me
so i could drive it), however I am in a position now where I dont have
the tools or equipment I used to have access to so its much harder to
accomplish tasks.

I'm sorry if my spit and bailingwire approach is pissing you off but I
am doing the best I can with the little time and money I have.

 

Obviously you know nothing about service loaner cars. They are not
write-offs. And they do cost the dealership money. Do you know what the
insurance rates are for Loaner cars? Garage policies are over $30 a day per
car. And since they are a vehicle that is also for resale, it is not a Write
off! Why do you think the loaners have miles on them? Main reason is because
they are Used cars bought at Auction (ex-rental / ex-company cars) DC even
recommendsdealers not use new cars, to begin with, and if it was a new car
put into service the dealer would lose there shirt. And it is that reason
that MOST dealers do not even give Demos to sales people anymore because
they are money losers. And the fact is depending on the size of the
dealership they can see over 100 Service customers a day. And the dealership
will not have 100 loaner cars for them. So they have three maybe 5 max. And
they will not give one to someone who comes in for the first time with a
used car that was never purchased from them. They keep them available for
there customers, and repeat customers.

 

If it was a warranty problem Chrysler got involved because of the cost of
the dealer replacing all the parts without a solution. As a matter of Fact
DC more then likely ended up getting charged back every penny they spent
replacing parts on the car, that did not fix the problem. GE does not wield
a big stick with Chrysler. DC Canada actually does not look highly with GE
as Ge Fleet services does not properly insure that there fleet vehicles are
maintained, and DC refuses to take back any GE fleet vehicle back because of
it.

 

Ok so today here is what I have.

Went for a drive to get gas, went into limp very soon after that. So I
took it over to Advance Auto parts to see if their code scanner could
have any better luck. It was able to read it. Here is what it dumped.

ENG: 24/P0123
TPS Voltage High

ENG: 33/-----
A/C Clutch Relay CKT

Not much help there, the 33 code according to the code list I have
says it could also be the following;

A/C pressure sensor volts too high
A/C pressure sensor volts too lo
Speed control switch always low
Speed control switch always high
Speed control solenoid circuits
High speed condenser fan control relay circuit
High fan and high fan ground control relay circuit

So nothing for the transmission or why it went into limp because
according to the tranny manual the TPS cant force the tranny into
limp.

I did notice today that the tranny is exhibiting two other odd
symptoms. Sometimes when at a stop, it takes time for it to go into
1st gear and shift rather hard. Other times when coming to a stop it
will downshift roughly at 28mph as I am stopping.

I checked with Dodge today to see if they can provide a replacement
wiring harness for the TCM and sensors, they said they show a 'Trans
Wiring' item on the books and that its just about $280 and has to be
special ordered.

So if I were to get the trans wiring, for $280 and the computer from
Dodge $250 and have them set the pinion angle and update the flash
$90/hour labor 1 hour minimum. Do yall think this should settle things
up? Oh yeah add in TPS for $80.

 

I said they were a TAX write off, not a collission write off.

All of which is written off by accountants as a "cost of doing
business".

They write down the value of the car at an accellerate depreciation
rate. Then, they sell the car off for much less than "new", but for
higher than the depreciated value on the "books". So it IS still
profitable for them to do this.

Not sure how it is now, but this never used to be the case. Loaner
cars from DEALERSHIPS around here used to be cars that were at most 2
model years old. Now independant service garages... mostly had the
most aweful beaters umaginable.

You lose the value, but get a tax credit in return. Like I said, cost
of doing business.

No shit Sherlock. (pardon the sarcasm)

Like I said, you have to book a loaner car in advance! This is because
the dealer only has a limited number of service loaner cars. I think
this dealer had 5 or maybe 10 MAXIMUM, and they did NOT advertise the
fact either.

Fact still remains, business is built - or lost - one customer at a
time. Of course the longstanding customers are going to get "dibs" on
loaner cars. But if the OP books far enough in advance, and discusses
the matter with the Service Manager first, then there really should
not be a problem! If there is, don't go to that dealer.

Most dealres I have dealt with are at least approachable as long as
you are not being demanding or an asshole. You approach, and it is a
business propsition. You are looking for service, and good quality
work at a fair price. In return you are offering customer loyalty, and
a lonstanding, mutually benficial, business relationship.

Surely a competant service manager could see the advantage in gaining
such a customer, yes???

Besides, at this point what has the OP got to loose??? The worst the
dealership could say is "No", in which case they loose the business,
and the OP is no further behind than before!

To the OP, Go for it! No guts, no glory!

 

Uh huh... Let me guess, the shop the rebuilt the trans used Dexron III
trans fluid?

My A604 used to downshift exactly as you described after being
rebuilt. It was not until I had the fluid and filter replaced a couple
of years later that the problem went away. I discovered that most
trans shops used Dexron III with an additional addtion of "LubeGuard".
The shop that dis the fuild & filter change used ATF+4!

Double check with the shop that rebuilt your trans several times. My
bet is that they used the wrong fluid to save money (their money) and
which if left in your trans will lead to premature failure and repeat
business for them!

You know something, this is STILL a "shotgun" approach! No matter how
logical your approach, you do NOT know if ANY of the above will solve
your problem without a definitave diagnosis!

From where I sit, you simply cannot aford NOT to go and get the
problem diagnosed! Until you have a diagnosis, you could just keep
pouring money into the thing!

I am sure you realize at this point that your transmission may have
been just fine to begin with! How much was that? $1800????

I think that the dealer could spend 2 hours on this, so $180, and then
tell you what the F&ck is wrong. THEN, rather than replace a whole
bunch of parts and pray you got "the one", you could spend exactly
what you HAVE to spend and get the car fixed properly.

By avoiding spending money for a proper diagnosis, you are being penny
wise, and pound foolish.

Hey it is your dime, but YOU are the one who said you were trying to
save money. I don't see how spending $1800, plus how much for a tow,
and then throwing another - what - $700 at this problem with NO IDEA
of whether or not this will fix the problem is "saving money".

How are you going to feel if you spend the extra $700 (plus tax), and
the problem persists????

How much is this car worth anyways???

Just my $0.02

 

Newman. It is not a tax writeoff. The dealer has to resell the vehicle.
Legally he cannot write of the losses of a loaner then resale the car.
That's fraud. He has to eat those losses. They can only write down the value
of depreciation on vehicles not licensed, not on vehicles being used as
loaners. Those have to be licensed to the dealership, and all losses on "of
use" vehicles are the dealerships responsibility. So he buys a car with
12,000 km's at the auction for $15,000, licenses it, insures it and uses it
as a dealership loaner, after one year, it has 30,000 km's and has a value
of $10,000. Guess what, he lost $5,000 in depreciation, license and
insurance fees. He cannot write it off as he is reselling it as a used car
on his lot. So he just ate over $5000, per car! That is why some dealerships
get tight giving out loaners especially slow periods like winter. They are
not selling cars, not getting service work, and are loosing money. So they
clamp up extra's. Did you know most dealerships actually lose money in
January and February.

I really love how you guys think dealerships are all rolling in the dough.
Do you even know how much it costs the average dealership a day, just to
turn on the lights?

I used to work with DC and called on many dealers. Did you know that one
dealer actually had a Honda Motorcycle shop, and made more money selling a
Honda lawnmower, then on a car? Made more then double selling a $26,000
goldwing then two Fully loaded Gr. Cherokke limiteds?

 

You are probably right, it wouldnt suprise me in the least hell I dont
even think thats my tranny in the car anymore. The one that was in
there when I took it to the shop had writing on top in that yellow
paint pen wrecking yards use and had a dar dirty bellhousing. This one
is shiny and clean. No I dont think they cleaned mine because at the
place where the writing was is a factory sticker of some sort that
looks like its been on there for years. In addition when they replaced
the #$@$@ solenoid pack they didnt put the sount suppressor back over
it so not the solenoids are much louder. Maybe I will have the DC Shop
just flush the fluid just in case the old tranny shop lies...

Here is my problem, I took it to Dodge once, and they offierd to 'fix'
my problem by replacing the two speed sensors and the TPS for $510. I
replaced the speed sensors and it had no effect. I am now dealing with
a different dealership though.

What I want isnt too much to ask, I want to walk in and drop off my
car. Have them fix the damn limp mode issue and have it BE FIXED. The
problem is its so damn incosistiently going into limp mode that no
dealership is going to agree to this. They can change out 100 things
and it may still go into limp a week later. Since none of the local
dealerships is giving loaners I cant afford to have my car in the shop
every other week while they figure out wth is wrong. Thats why I am
moving to the shotgun approach. Yes its stupid to buy an engine when
the only thing that needs to be changed is a leaky valve cover gasket,
however, when you cant find the bloody leak and dont have the luxury
of spare vehicles to drive while someone figures out your problem you
may just have to go BAM.

Initally my transmission was fine, when I took it to Dodge. I replaced
the sensors took it to work and it dropped into limp on the freeway.
That evening when I went to leave work there was no 2nd gear left.

Thats assuming in those 2 hours it goes into limp. Since the computer
isnt returning any codes how are they to guess it? Seriously I'm not
being a piss ass here.

The tow was $155 of which my insurance will reimbusre $50. I am trying
to save money but I have other costs to weigh too such as the impact
at home of not having the car for a month.

I paid $3800+tax for the car on 2/23/06

Always welcome!!

 

Hi Richard...

Just thinking out of the box...

Your original message had the dealer wanting to change the
in/out speed sensors AND the tps. You changed the sensors,
but left the tps alone.

Now your read-out indicates a tps fault.

Is it at all possible that you're not going into limp mode
at all, but rather that the faulty tps is telling the ecu
that you've have it completely floored, and the ecu is in turn
telling the tcu to go into "passing" (2nd) gear?

Running away now

Take care.

Ken

 

ROTFLMAO

Cute idea and not entirely impossible. Since when it happens the car
stumbles significantly I imagine it could be happening this way. Heck
at this point I'm nto ruling anything out.

 

I had piped up about the ATF +3. Someone here used AT +4, but the
non-synthetic ATF +3 is closest to what the A604 was designed for. I
also had the TCM flashed but my problem had been spelled out, a
shifting problem with tell-tale shuddering around 37 mph. Common enough
that it had a nickname, the 37 mph shudder

Now about the harness. Expensive. From computers and electronics, there
can be very strange problems caused by connectors. Here's some ideas.
Reseating of course. Cleaning up with alcohol of course, maybe a fine
screwdriver, Q-tips, maybe a very fine file but be careful not to scrap
away any metal coatings. Using an eraser and more alcohol. And then
there used to be a very expensive, not expensive by car standards, but
a chemical that ran around $22 for a very small bottle that could be
applied to connectors, like computer boards, when all else seemed to
fail. They must still make stuff like that? Gets rid of gremlins, as
these unknown, bad connectored, signals were called. Maybe have new
names now.

I guess if all else failed, then I get out the ohmmeter and very
carefully, usually with straight pins, not pretty but somewhat
effective, I would take readings on all the wires that I suspected of
problems. I don't know if this is possible in your harness. Maybe the
harness is round so you can't pin prick the wires easily as in a ribbon
or straight harness. In any case, from tip to stern, I would want to
see a reading similar to the ohmmeter with the leads touching
themselves directly, usually around 0.6 ohms for my good but cheap 4
digits multimeter.

Just some more thoughts, but from a signal processing viewpoint, not an
automobile since I also don't do cars any more. You might also try
Allpar.com and other places where there might be other DC people who
are expert mechanics or trouble-shooters. I got a lot of advice from
Allpar.com and from this newsgroup. A lot of very technical stuff came
from Allpar.com.

A long time ago, when Chrysler was owned by the Americans and not the
Germans, there used to be a "zone representative" who would intercede.
Usually in case of money disputes but also bring access to technical
expertise. That was really nice to do. But then the cars had room to
work on the engines and I could follow the FSM a lot easier too. In any
case, or this case, does this still exist? A special place to call in
Chrysler when having really bad problems? Sometimes the I would
complain and complain again and the zone rep would come down to the
dealer.

What happened with the zener diode, did you replace it? Maybe throw a
toroidal choke around the harness? Don't laugh. On back of CRT
monitors, they still have those on the signal cables, it's a round
thingee, metallic, looks like a tubular magnet. Anything to keep the
signals flowing and true.

 

The stuff used to be called "Cramolin". It came in a RED and a BLUE
formula. The RED was a contact cleaner, and the Blue was a contact
preservative.

I used these both on audio connections, and in automotive
applications. They worked great.

Here is a link to the manufacturer:

http://www.itwcp.de/en/index.html

It is now called "ContaClean"

"CONTACLEAN"

"Oil-based Powerful Contact Cleaner dissolving Oxide and Sulphide
Layers.

"CONTACLEAN efficiently removes oxide and sulphide layers from
metallic contact surfaces of any kind. Simultaneously, special
inhibitors ensure long-lasting lubrication and corrosion protection.
Reduces contact resistance that leads to failures, and eliminates
voltage drops. Durable preservation of the perfect operational
reliability of all electro-mechanical contacts. CONTACLEAN has been a
well-proven agent in radio and television engineering as well as in
laboratory and after-sales service for a long time.

Unfortunately, I have no idea where the heck you buy the stuff. A
quickie Google shows that it is supposedly available in the USA, but
there is NO reference I could find to a store you might locate the
stuff at. If you can find it, it IS the best.

Failing that, there is also DeOXit from http://www.caig.com/

This may be more available.

Yeah, but the problem in intermittent! Make sure you use a fairly
sensitive ANALOG meter. If you use a digital meter, the display wont
even flicker. At least with an ANALOG meter movement, an instantaneous
pulse will case the needle to deflect a bit, and you have a chance of
seeing it.

 

The other thing about this loaner car issue is that the idea that someone
bringing
in an "old clunker" to a dealership to get it fixed is going to come back
from
the loaner car and immediately buy a new car is a fantasy, it almost never
happens.

New car buyers typically aren't the kind of people that wring every last
mile out
of their car. A few of them are, but most are the folks that trade in their
2-4 year
old car for a new one. They aren't driving old clunkers, if anything they
are turning
the car in the second the warranty runs out.

The old clunker drivers are the folks on the bottom of the economic scale
who
cannot afford to depreciation loss of buying a new car. And they hardly
ever
go to a dealership, if the old clunker breaks down to the amount that an
independent cannot fix it, then off it goes to the wrecker, there's plenty
more
old clunkers where it came from.

The folks that could be enticed to go to a dealership for repairs who
normally frequent
independents are the folks that are first generation used car buyers, these
are
the folks that buy cars that the new car buyers have traded in. Thie cars
still have
a high enough blue book that the owners would seriously contemplate throwing
$1500
in repair costs at a dealership into them. They aren't going to want to buy
a new
car for replacement, and they aren't going to be that interested in buying a
used car
because they know that any used car they buy will probably be in no better
shape
than the one that they have.

The argument that NewMan is making is the sort of thing that sounds like
someone
who has no intention of buying a new car would be trying to use on a car
dealership
to con them out of a loaner car. It does not pass the sniff test. And also
I am always
suspicious of "tax write off" arguments anyway. In order for any business
to take advantage
of a "big tax write off" they have to have profit to write it off against.
What the hell good is
a $50,000 tax write off when the dealership has only declared a profit of
$20K for
the year?

And before anyone starts in with the dealership owners are rolling in dough
argument,
let me point out that just about all dealership owners pay themselves a
salary that gets
pulled out BEFORE profit is declared. If I owned a dealership that would
normally
declare a profit of $1,000,000 for the year, I'd pay myself a salary of
$990,000
and send most of it into a tax sheleter, and make for damn sure that the
dealership
only realized a very small profit. Thus any tax write offs would really be
coming off
my salary, since I'd have to reduce my salary to increase the dealership
profit so
they could then take the larger tax write off. Get it?

Ted

 

Hi Richard...

If it's of any interest at all, I can tell you that your
tps is directly connected to your tcu.

The center connector pin (the slider on the pot - OR/DB) is connected
to both the pcm AND to pin 12 on your tcu.

The ground connector (BK/LB) is connected to both the pcm AND
to pin 51 on your tcu as well as other sensors.

The remaining connector (VT/WT) is the 5 volt supply to the tps
as well as other sensors.

Take care.

Ken

 

Ok, well then let's look at it this way, we have to start making
some assumptions here.

The best would be to get it scanned again and see if the bad sensor
codes are still present. But, failing that, let's make some logical
deductions.

We start with a trans that's throwing itself into limp mode intermittently,
and dealership scan results that said the input and output speed sensors
are bad. I'll ignore the TPS for a moment, because as I mentioned already
you can independently test for that with an analog ohmmeter. (and you
should do this, to either eliminate it or to put the blame on it)

Occam's razor dictates that the most likely problem is in fact bad
speed sensors. So the first thing we do (after eliminating the TPS)
is replace the sensors.

But the problem does not go away. Now, the set of possibilities are:

1) internal trans problem that causes the input and output shaft speeds
to actually change speed to the illogical speeds that triggers the TCM to
set
a code. This is the least likely scenario since if it was the case this
would
be very repeatable, in fact it would probably be permanently in limp mode,
or at least go into it much more commonly.

2) Interference of the sensors from an outside agent - ie: A/C clutch or
surge -
easily checked by disconnecting all known outside agents.

3) New sensors are bad.

4) Wiring from TCM to the sensors is bad

5) TCM itself is bad.

Now, so far you have eliminated #1 (since you had the trans rebuilt) #2
(since
you disconnected the A/C) #4 (since you checked the wiring and
connections)

What is left is #3 and #5. (or possibly both)

A professional mechanic who had replaced #3 would test for #3 by simply
extracting both -new- sensors, and sending them back to his supplier and
claim both are bad. The supplier would replace them with new ones, and
the mechanic would install both new ones, send you on your way. If you came
back a second time, the professional mechanic would then be 99.9% sure
that the sensors were not the problem.

You could try this - assuming your new sensors are still under warranty.
I deplore this kind of thing though since it's shotgunning of the worst
kind,
I am only saying this because I know it goes on a lot in the business.

If that didn't work (most likely it would NOT work) the professional would
would probably then move to recommending replacement of the TCM itself.

If that didn't work then if the professional mechanic was -very- well versed
on auto electrical, he would start checking power supplied to the TCM
itself,
wiring, and so on. Of course, if he was doing his job he should do this
before
recommending TCM replacement but that is another story.

This is why you pay someone with that $4K scanner to do the diagnosis.

Where you got screwed over was that you didn't know before you got into
this that it would in fact require a $4K scanner to do diagnosis. That is
why I told you that it would, so that at least you would know.

What about charging back the failed rebuild as some folks recommended
already? After all the trans shop was paid to fix your trans, they didn't
do it,
and you gave them a chance to honor their warranty and they have decided
not to do it. Why then do they deserve to get paid?

It isn't pissing me off, not really. It's frustrating me that people come
to
this group after they have got themselves stuck in a hole and then ask
for advice, rather than asking for advice before doing anything. In a
way I guess I do take it a bit personally, since I've spent a lot of time
documenting my own trans issues so that people can learn, and
I've also contributed to the Allpar website as have other people. Yet
people aren't reading those sites or Googling them before running
out and doing things.

It is also frustrating when people come to this group with NO
factory service manual, or with a Chiltons manual, and ignore the
advice from the group to either get a FSM or get a subscription to
Alldata DIY for their vehicle. Not that you are in this group of
people, I don't recall that anyone has told you to get a FSM.

Anyway, good luck with it, I think I've laid out for you how I would
go about fixing it. You are not in a good situation because until
you get that chargeback upheld by the credit card company, you are
going to have to hold on to a vehicle that isn't reliable enough to
use as a daily driver. You no longer have the option to just sell it
and cross your fingers and hope that the thing does not go into limp
mode while demonstrating it to a buyer. The only advice I can really
add to the above is the following: this is a mechanical system, it has
no intelligence, and something is causing it to behave this way. In
other words, there is definitely a fault somewhere, and if you or
someone else works with it for a long enough time, checking and
rechecking, your going to find it. Just keep that in mind and don't
give up.

Ted