A604-41TE Amsoil synthetic versus ATF+3 Mpoar 7176 ??

Hi, I live in a warm climate where summer gets up to 38 deg C and mid winter
only 12 deg C. Since most automatic transmission failures are caused by heat
and i need to replace the fluid is it OK to use AMSOIL synthetic (1992
Plymouth Voyager 328000km's) The product is more expensive but would
probably last twice as long? Below is an extract from Amsoil:

Chrysler has been recommending their "ATF +" series for some time. Each
manufacturer has specific requirements and preferences when it comes to
automatic transmission fluids.
But with all of these different requirements mandating different fluid
types, it becomes much more difficult for Dealers and Retailers to market
ATF to auto owners. AMSOIL has designed an ATF that can cover all of the
major auto manufacturers' specifications and even those of most foreign and
specialty manufacturers as well. The new AMSOIL ATF is the only fluid in
the world which can cover all of the various auto applications that
automatic transmission fluids are designed for.AMSOIL ATF is also highly
resistant to thermal breakdown and oxidation.AMSOIL ATF can actually deliver
up to three to five times the service life of petroleum fluid and can resist
up to four times the temperature.

Hope this stirs up some debate.

 

No, it is not OK to use Scamsoil synthetic, which does *not* meet the
correct fluid spec for your van.

No, Chrysler has been *requiring* ATF+ for some time, and the newest fluid
is ATF+4. Do not be scammed by glossy ads claiming a non-spec fluid such
as Amsoil is "better" or "meets every spec". There is no such thing as a
universal automatic transmission fluid -- the specs are all *different*
from one another; it's not a question of this one being better than that
one being better than the other one.

USE THE CORRECT FLUID or you will wish that you had.

Bullshit.

-Stern

 

It is absolutely NOT alright. Only ATF+3 or +4 qualified fluids are
acceptable for your transmission. Any other type fluid lacks the
friction modifiers that are necessary for the operation of the torque
convertor lockup clutch in these transmissions. The TCCLC must operate
in a partially-locked mode for extended periods of time in 2nd, 3rd, and
4th gears, and without the proper modifiers it will "shudder" during
operation, and eventually fail as a result (if you're fillings don't
rattle out first).

Since your vehicle is a '92 its perfectly acceptable to use any one of
at least a half-dozen aftermarket brands of ATF+3 (Coastal, Exxon,
Pennzoil, Quaker State, and many others). If it were a vehicle that
required ATF+4, only Chrysler dealers currently carry that blend.

Since ATF+4 is fully synthetic and +3 lasts about as well as a
synthetic, it is also untrue that the Amsoil would "last twice as long."
But it wouldn't matter, because the transmission wouldn't last long
enough to find out.

 

AMSOIL claims to be ATF + compatible and Dexron compatible and
I think even Type F compatible. All have quite different characteristics.
The AMSOIL fluid must be able to detect what transmission it's used in
and switch characteristics. Quite an amazing fluid. I wonder how they
do that.

Actually with your Voyager, ATF +3 will work just as well and is
far cheaper. If your van's transmission is running on the factory fill
transmission fluid, it's got ATF +3 (or +2) in it already.

But, I never heard of a 1992 Voyager 4 speed transmission lasting 328000kms.
Are you sure your trans isn't a 3 speed, or hasn't been rebuilt once? If
it's a 4 speed I would bet it's been rebuilt, and there's no telling what
fluid the rebuilder used.

Ted

 

It's a simple yet powerful technique known as "lying".

Far cheaper, well, OK, yeah. Work just as well? Maybe not. There's a
fascinating SAE paper on the development of ATF+4. It contains lots of
different performance comparisons to ATF+, +2 and +3. After reading it, I
have zero problem paying the premium for +4; it's obviously a superior
fluid in every way.


-Stern

 

Hi Dan.

Cannot argue with what you wrote. Correctumundo!

However, if in an older tranny the original specs called for "type" 3 or
lower "type", then what will the extra $$ for "type" 4 do for the tranny?
Does the design of the older tranny depend on more than type 3? Will it
perform "better" when using "type" 4? Will it FOR SURE have longer life with
"type" 4?

It seems that in spite of a "superior" product is the extra bucks worth it?
Some clothing is "superior" in design but that does not mean that I need to
buy it to be "well dressed", presentable and comfortable. No definite "proof"
just comparisons and opinions.

Put it another way - will using "type" 3 in his older tranny DO any harm? If
so, why does CC not state that as fact? All they state is what you say as
"No, Chrysler has been *requiring* ATF+ for some time, and the newest fluid
is ATF+4." Not the same as stating that any "older "type" WILL be harmful.
Not exactly straight shooting. Kinda like the advertising hype some
marketeers use.

In my '84 Voyager the diff bearings started making noise after 200,000 kms.
Now with 275,000 km it is time for a rebuild. The "donor" core and torque
converter are both sitting waiting for the two-week time block in our
schedule to complete this project. Not sure if the Voyager's tranny is
original, but if it is (any I have seen 3-speeds with that mileage) don't
believe than ANY ATF (and that includes Scramsol) would have extended it's
life. I mean it is 20 years old with lots of highway (and non-towing) kms on
it. I know "type" 4 ATF won't be used in that rebuild simply because there is
NO data that I can find to show that anything better than the readily
available "type" 3 will harm the tranny (aka reduce it's performance and life
span).

Yes, I know, I am talking now about the 3-speed '84 and not the OP's '92
which has over 300,000 kms. No matter what the OP used for fluid, the tranny
is obviously being taken care of IF the +300,000 kms are on an original
tranny

Ken

 

http://www.sae.org/servlets/productDetail?PROD_TYP=PAPER&PROD_CD=982674

Spend the $10; download the paper. It's fascinating reading.

No, but the new fluid will offer better lubrication, more
consistent frictional characteristics, better retention of
characteristics over a larger temperature range--all things that
tend to improve a transmission's lifespan.

Well, no, probably not, but your 3-speed trans is not *nearly* as
sensitive to fluid frictional characteristics as is the 4-speed.

Your question of "will it do harm to use the older fluid?" seems kinda
backwards to me...like saying "The owner's manual for my 1979 Caprice
Classic says I should use API SD engine oil. I can get that by the case
down at the cut-price auto parts store on the edge of town. Sure, I could
skip right over SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, SK and go directly to the newest SL
oil from the regular parts place. It's better oil, no doubt, but my manual
says I should use SD, so what harm will it do?"

-Stern

 

:

I snipped the previous part but note that one paper in and of itself may be
fascinating reading, but any researcher knows that one study is NOT conclusive.
If several papers have replicatable findings then that is good. One paper in
and of itself is interesting reading and food for thought (and more
research/experimenting).

True! OTOH, if the OP's tranny with 328,000 kms on it is a 4-speed then it is
indeed living on borrowed time. How much longer is not for us to say.

Trouble with this last statement of yours is that all the engine oils currently
sold have the latest specs. At least here where I live. I don't know if SD oil
is still being sold. I note that the last case of oil I bought in December (at
Oil Mart) for my wife's '83 Volvo GL with about 400,000 kms on the engine and
tranny is Havoline 10W-30 service rated as SL, SJ, SH. The older ratings are
not available here. In summer I use URSA 15W-40 with the same ratings.
Changing the oil and filter religiously every 5000 km has done more to enhance"
the engine's lifespan than any oil. Just my opinion. 400,000 kms is what I'd
like to get from my CC engine in my Voyager

OTOH, if the older ratings are available, suitable and quite a bit less
expensive, then obviously ... This seems to be the case with ATF+3 and ATF+4.
Both ratings are available. If it makes you feel good to put in the best oil
money can buy, then by all means do whatever you please. However, that does not
necessarily help longevity. Regular (appropriate) oil and filter changes have
more to do with longevity than just putting in the "best" oil money can buy.
Naturally, spending money is one's own responsibility. Putting in more than you
need into a tranny/engine with over 300,000 kms is not in itself going to
enhance longevity any more than taking vitamin pills in and of itself is going
to extend the lifespan of my 85 year old mother. Clearly other factors must
also be addressed to extend the lifespan of the OP's vehicle, and that includes
appropriate filter and ATF changes. Wanna spend the extra money? Put in a
large(er) ATF external cooler.

 

Except that it's not a "study" and it's not trying to "conclude" anything.

Stop assuming. Go read.

Sounds like you only shop at fancy-pants parts stores and big-boxes.
Ever been to Eugene, OR? There's a town next to it, Springfield. Just over
the Eugene-Springfield line is Brooks' Cut Rate Auto Parts. Yes, it's cute
that Mr. Brooks' store name acronymizes "C.R.A.P." They have the
current-spec oils, but they also have pallets upon pallets of old-spec
stuff. Saw SD oil by the case, in new-old-stock cans, just a few years
ago.

....not. Newer oil = better oil = longer engine life. Using the best
available oil within reasonable price range, and not just the bare
acceptable minimum, is a no-brainer.

Unless, of course, you buy into the whole pile of "use it up and throw it
away, then buy a new one" crapola, like a good little consumer...

-Stern

 

When all else fails, flame away. Or at the very least use subtle ridicule.

I don't have the $$ to spend on the study/research paper. Frankly the $12 US
dollars is used for other things that are more important than getting into an
"I am smarter than you" dialogue of the deaf.

Dan, YOU ARE SMARTER THAN ME!! Got it? I have taken your advice before, but
this time you have gone too far.

What is the paper you refer to if not a "study"? Is it a comic book? Does it
give results at least, if no conclusions (as you state)? If not conclusive,
then it is obviously INconclusive and not worth reading. How about putting a
pdf copy available for public scrutiny instead of just saying trust me and
spend the $10. Besides, the $10 is false! Unless you are a member, you spend
more. If you are a member you spend less.

Don't let me get nasty for I do admit you are smarter than me. Not sure about
your smartness as compared to anyone else though ....

Happy now, with my public accolade and acknowledgment? I hope so, for you
deserve it.

I don't give a rat's ass what oil or ATF is available in Eugene Oregon, or in
Dakka, Bangladesh, or anywhere else. Several years ago my farming relatives
had that same oil in "45 gal" drums. Big deal. I told you what oil is
available in Winnipeg - here and now, NOT there and then. I really don't know
where you get into the diatribe about me buying parts at "fancy-pants parts
stores and big-boxes." Don't these two types of establishments sell good oil?
If not, why are they in business? I buy oil at a lubricant warehouse that just
sells lubricants and Hastings filters. The place is called Oil Mart. Name
brand oils, lubes and filters. Nothing fancy about that place except their
customer service. Their Shell Rotella is a bit too expensive for me now that
they don't sell the dino version, so I buy pails of URSA and the occasional
case of Havoline. Right now I use Texaco oils with the ratings shown in my
previous post. I am not going to buy recycled oil because I simply don't want
to. The additive package is not good enough to be called 200 hr oil. URSA has
that package. I am not sure of the Havoline being a 200 hr oil, but it was all
they had at the time... As for C.R.A.P., what does this have to do with
anything about oil available here? I am happy that you know the location of
such places. Good for you, but so what? It is similar to comparing the price
of gasoline here with the price in Boca Raton or Alice Springs. So what?

Yes Dan, you are smarter than me. Make sure you keep that in mind when you
pontificate. Anyways, I don't mind being talked down to. Others may, but I
don't. In the kind of work I do I have become quite used to it. However,
putting ATF+3 oil into any tranny with 328,000 km or even 287,000 km on it
won't make a rats ass difference on further longevity and performance as
compared to putting in ATF+4, NO MATTER what you say. Throw the $$ away and
use whatever you want. Longevity will NOT be enhanced. Not at 328,000km, nor
at 287,000km. NO WAY! You have NO PROOF! Period! Another no-brainer! I don't
care whose '92 chrysler automatic transmission it is, there is not a rats ass
difference between ATF+3 and ATF+4 at those kilometers. If it MAKES a
difference at those kilometers, state the definitive source and copy the words
here with appropriate citations. Not just ONE paper, but replicated results.
I repeat, replicated results noit just one study. One study means pilch in the
total scheme of things. Perhaps the findings/conclusions in 1 study were a
fluke. How did they deal with controlled variables or did they deal with them?
No way of knowing if they were a fluke until replicated studies are done
independently. That is CORRECT research. Since I acknowledge that you are
smarter than me you must realize that basic premise of doing research in the
engineering community. Only the gullible are sucked in by 1 definitive study.
Also, forget Amsoil and other marketing hype. I think you owe this to the
others who are reading this "discussion".

By the way, your comment "Newer oil = better oil = longer engine life" is
not enough. Better oil in and of itself is no panacea. Even you must admit
that maintenance as in CHANGING the oil with appropriate filter is also
needed. I remember the lady in one of my grad school classes who replaced the
engine in her minivan when she did not bother to change oil or even check it's
level. She never looked at the oil from the day she drove the brand new
minivan off the dealer's lot in Minnetonka, Minnesota. Maintenance?? What's
that, she wondered. Brand new oil did not help her van in and of itself, did
it?

 

Thanks, Ken! Your response was well worth the read. I, too, have learned to
accept being talked down to as I work with the public all the time and it is
just a matter of survival. Your humbleness is appreciated - I wish it was
shared by more in this newsgroup.

RP

 

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or
auto trans axles for that matter. I 'am' a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast
however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to
this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any
lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party
having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses
Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my
limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about
posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with. I can only offer my
personal experience and limited knowledge, because frankly it appears
obvious to me, that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to
persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such
debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and
manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda
[*spin*]. The facts, so far, have taken a back seat to the forgoing,
regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long many if not most Transmission
Shops, wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long
as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however,
that this is simply NOT true. But they obviously do not really know why
this is so.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's
on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to
interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are
still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or
not ATF + 4 is a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade
'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will
only provoke an argument. HA! riiiiiiight. Instead I will TRY to offer the
following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the
*corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely
conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid"
about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully
examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter
Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking
face to face with a few real experts.

As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a
truly great design. It is a genuine marvel of technology. It's weakness
has really been that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not
adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4
is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi
synthetic. As such it still has impurities, *which can and will* convert
to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true
full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full
synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type
IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was
available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms
up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil
named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully
explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not
snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be
such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy
spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps,
welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler
to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned
thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and
especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the
whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite
the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs
of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8
months after the expensive rebuild, but *as the weather warmed up* it was
getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as
firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or
defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections
"down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that, as usual,
several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC
TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very
recently.

At the advice of a trusted performance expert. I opened my mind and began
to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was always a, NO WAY
JOSE Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby, kind of person. But Joe
has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4
really is. Thank you Joe!

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has
their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4, tells me that money
is more important to them than we are. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR
parts man, and one dealership Service manager and dealership owner in my
area, really is way above average. Great people. But face it, many
dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at
all, and for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it.
I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full
synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF
ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even
well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think
that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken
because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that
ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch
characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It
senses nothing, and it can not "switch characteristics". ATF can do no
more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation
of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior, to any
Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer.
I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I
have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual
even. It is really worth the money too.

I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and
enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make
my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and
pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level.

Yeah, it's sort of like before; but I am not "sweating it" anymore,
because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go
traffic it no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves
from P to D, even when I first start my engine. All just like it did the
day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic
points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists.
I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself,
and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open
your mind and consider the facts for yourself. I will leave it to you to
do that.

I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil
is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have
cleared my conscience, and my HOT 3.0 FWD MOPAR, now rocks even more than
it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

 

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or
auto trans axles for that matter. I 'am' a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast
however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to
this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any
lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party
having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses
Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my
limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about
posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with. I can only offer my
personal experience and limited knowledge, because frankly it appears
obvious to me, that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power to
persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such
debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and
manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda
[*spin*]. The facts, so far, have taken a back seat to the forgoing,
regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long many if not most Transmission
Shops, wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long
as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned however,
that this is simply NOT true. But they obviously do not really know why
this is so.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's
on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to
interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are
still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or
not ATF + 4 is a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a lower grade
'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will
only provoke an argument. HA! riiiiiiight. Instead I will TRY to offer the
following, which I hope will assist you as it did me, to sort out the
*corporate spin and advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely
conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid"
about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully
examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter
Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking
face to face with a few real experts.

As a result I became convinced that the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a
truly great design. It is a genuine marvel of technology. It's weakness
has really been that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is simply not
adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish. Although ATF + 4
is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV PAO semi
synthetic. As such it still has impurities, *which can and will* convert
to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a 'true
full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV full
synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type
IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was
available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms
up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil
named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully
explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not
snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be
such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy
spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps,
welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler
to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned
thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and
especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the
whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite
the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs
of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8
months after the expensive rebuild, but *as the weather warmed up* it was
getting a bit harder to move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as
firm as it really should be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or
defective, and my PRNDL switch was just fine, as were all the connections
"down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that, as usual,
several Chrysler service reps had different interpretations of the DC
TSBs. No one was sure if I even should change to ATF +4, until very
recently.

At the advice of a trusted performance expert. I opened my mind and began
to do research on the full synthetic alternative. I was always a, NO WAY
JOSE Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that baby, kind of person. But Joe
has never given me bad advice, so I decided to look into what ATF +4
really is. Thank you Joe!

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has
their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4, tells me that money
is more important to them than we are. Well, OK, I love my local MOPAR
parts man, and one dealership Service manager and dealership owner in my
area, really is way above average. Great people. But face it, many
dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust Daimler at
all, and for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it.
I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full
synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF
ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even
well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think
that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken
because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that
ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch
characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It
senses nothing, and it can not "switch characteristics". ATF can do no
more than behave within it's formulation parameters, and the formulation
of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO fluid, is greatly superior, to any
Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer.
I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I
have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual
even. It is really worth the money too.

I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly again, and
enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is going to make
my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change filters and
pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level.

Yeah, it's sort of like before; but I am not "sweating it" anymore,
because of the way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go
traffic it no longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves
from P to D, even when I first start my engine. All just like it did the
day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic
points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists.
I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself,
and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open
your mind and consider the facts for yourself. I will leave it to you to
do that.

I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this subject. Amsoil
is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer, but I have
cleared my conscience, and my HOT 3.0 FWD MOPAR, now rocks even more than
it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

 

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or
auto trans axles for that matter. I am a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast
however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to
this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any
lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party
having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses
Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my
limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about
posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with, and I can only
offer my personal experience and limited knowledge because frankly, it
appears obvious to me that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power
to persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such
debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and
manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda
*spin*. The facts, so far have taken a back seat to the forgoing,
regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long, many if not most Transmission
Shops wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long
as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned
however, that this is simply NOT true.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's
on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to
interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are
still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or
not ATF + 4 is really even a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a
lower grade 'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will
only provoke an argument. Instead I will offer the following, which I hope
will assist you as it did me, to sort out the *corporate spin and
advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely
conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid"
about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully
examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter
Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking
face to face with a few real experts. As a result I became convinced that
the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a great design. It is a true marvel of
technology. It's true weakness is that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is
simply not adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish.
Although ATF + 4 is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV
PAO semi synthetic. As such it still has impurities, which can and will,
convert to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a
'true full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV
full synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type
IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was
available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms
up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil
named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully
explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not
snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be
such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy
spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps,
welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler
to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned
thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and
especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the
whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite
the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs
of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8
months after the expensive rebuild, and it was getting a bit harder to
move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as firm as it really should
be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or defective, and my PRNDL
switch was just fine, as were all the connections "down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that several Chrysler
service reps had different interpretations of the DC TSBs. No one was sure
if I even should change to ATF +4, until very recently. At the advice of a
trusted performance expert.. I began to do research on the full synthetic
alternative. I was a NO WAY JOSE! Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that
baby kind of person. But Joe has never given me bad advice, so I decided
to look into what ATF +4 really is.

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has
their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4. Well, OK, I love my
local MOPAR parts man, and one dealership Service manager, and the
dealership owner in my are is way above average. Great people. But face
it, many dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust
Daimler at all, for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it.
I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full
synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF
ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even
well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think
that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken
because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that
ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch
characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It
sense nothing. ATF can do no more than behave within it's formulation
parameters, and the formulation of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO
fluid, is greatly superior to any Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer.
I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I
have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual
even. I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly
again, and enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is
going to make my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change
filters and pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level. Yeah, it's
sort of like before. But I am not "sweating it" anymore, because of the
way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go traffic it will no
longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves from P to D even
when I first start my engine, like it did the day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic
points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists.
I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself,
and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open
your mind. I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this
subject. Amsoil is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer,
but I have cleared my conscience, and my ht 3.0 MOPAR now rocks even more
than it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

 

Hello everybody,

I am new here, and I freely admit I am not an expert on lubricants, or
auto trans axles for that matter. I am a die hard FWD MOPAR enthusiast
however, and I have an above average understanding of relevant matters to
this topic. I am in no way affiliated with either Daimler Chrysler, or any
lubricant blender or distributing network. I am merely a private party
having experience with the A604/41TE4 auto transaxles.

I have read with great interest the debate about ATF +3 and +4, verses
Amsoil Type IV 'full synthetic' Universal ATF, and I wish to offer my
limited knowledge and personal experience regarding this.

I do not care *who* is "right or wrong", and neither do I care much about
posting style. The facts are what I am concerned with, and I can only
offer my personal experience and limited knowledge because frankly, it
appears obvious to me that statistics and fancy numbers hold little power
to persuade these days regarding ATF and other lubricants. Really such
debates are just arguments driven mainly by emotion, e.g, product and
manufacturer loyalty based upon advertising hype and corporate propaganda
*spin*. The facts, so far have taken a back seat to the forgoing,
regarding the ATF +3 and +4 vs alternatives debate.

Most of us are aware that for too long, many if not most Transmission
Shops wrongly believe an A604 can handle even Dextron Mercon ATF, as long
as a friction modifier is added. Many a sad A604 owner has learned
however, that this is simply NOT true.

DC has been partly to blame for these misconceptions, because their TSB's
on this issue have been until recently, ambiguous and open to
interpretation. In fact even now, because of this, many A604 owners are
still unsure if ATF +4 is suitable for *their year* of A604. Or whether or
not ATF + 4 is really even a 'full synthetic' Type IV PAO ATF, or just a
lower grade 'semi synthetic' Type III PAO ATF.

I am going to try now, to avoid laying out "facts" in a way which will
only provoke an argument. Instead I will offer the following, which I hope
will assist you as it did me, to sort out the *corporate spin and
advertising hype* from good information.

I have gone through two A604's, despite my tendency to to be extremely
conscientious about maintenance issues, and I became "absolutely paranoid"
about my A604. Religiously checking the ATF level daily, carefully
examining the fluid on the stick, watching temp levels on my AutoMeter
Trans temp gauge, and reading to learn about this trans axle, even talking
face to face with a few real experts. As a result I became convinced that
the A604/41TE4, as it is now, is a great design. It is a true marvel of
technology. It's true weakness is that existing ATF, even DC's new + 4, is
simply not adequate to cool it and keep it free from micro-varnish.
Although ATF + 4 is a step in the right direction, it is really a type IV
PAO semi synthetic. As such it still has impurities, which can and will,
convert to micro-varnish etc, and it's *viscosity index* is inferior to a
'true full synthetic' type IV. It can NOT cool as well as a true Type IV
full synthetic.

I recently did a complete flush and filter change, in an upgrade to a Type
IV full synthetic ATF. I was going to go with Redline C+, but none was
available in my area, and I wanted to do it before the weather here warms
up any more than it is now. So I spoke at length with a tech at Amsoil
named Kevin who posts on the Bob Is The Oil Guy forum. He carefully
explained to me why their "universal" type IV full synthetic ATF, is not
snake oil, as I thought it just "had to be". I mean, how could there be
such a thing as a "universal" ATF?!

OK. Cut to the chase. I had my last A604 race built last year. Alloy
spline and planetaries, the best Kevlar clutches, a premium TC and pumps,
welded diff pin etc, and I changed from the 'old tech' tube and fin cooler
to a stacked plate cooler. I only used MOPAR ATF +3. Still the damned
thing would just get too hot during "spirited street driving", and
especially in stop and go in town. All of this just left me "sick of the
whole thing". I was on the verge of doing the 5 speed manual swap, despite
the high cost in time and effort because I was getting the beginning signs
of "problems", despite all the best parts and perfect maintenance! Only 8
months after the expensive rebuild, and it was getting a bit harder to
move the handle from P to D, and 3rd was not as firm as it really should
be. I knew the solenoid valve body was not old or defective, and my PRNDL
switch was just fine, as were all the connections "down there".

I considered going to MOPAR ATF +4, despite the fact that several Chrysler
service reps had different interpretations of the DC TSBs. No one was sure
if I even should change to ATF +4, until very recently. At the advice of a
trusted performance expert.. I began to do research on the full synthetic
alternative. I was a NO WAY JOSE! Only MOPAR ATF +3 is going onto that
baby kind of person. But Joe has never given me bad advice, so I decided
to look into what ATF +4 really is.

The fact the DC has NOT licensed the formula to others, as even FORD has
their new ATF, and DC charges $25 a gallon for ATF +4. Well, OK, I love my
local MOPAR parts man, and one dealership Service manager, and the
dealership owner in my are is way above average. Great people. But face
it, many dealerships are "less than trustworthy", and I do not trust
Daimler at all, for good reason.

So with an open mnd this time. I looked into Amsoil. I *agonized* over it.
I read and I read. I talked to others who had switched to type IV PAO full
synthetic ATF. Then I did it. I put it in, and let me tell you the STUFF
ROCKS!

I am so glad that *I did the work*, to sort through all the hype and even
well intended misconceptions from loyalists. For example, those who think
that Mopar +4 is a true TYPE IV PAO full synthetic, are simply mistaken
because it is only a TYPE III semi synthetic. Some people even think that
ATF can somehow "sense what kind of trans it is in", and then "switch
characteristics to meet the application". Trans fluid is not sentient. It
sense nothing. ATF can do no more than behave within it's formulation
parameters, and the formulation of a true full synthetic TYPE IV PAO
fluid, is greatly superior to any Type III semi synthetic. End of story.

My A604/41TE4 now runs 20 degrees F cooler, and shifts faster and firmer.
I don't care if it is "supposed to last longer" or not. I do NOT care if I
have to change it every 10K miles instead of tmy old 25K change ritual
even. I know that any ATF capable of making my SVB function perfectly
again, and enable my A604 to run cooler and shift that much better, is
going to make my trans axle last a lot longer. All I have to do is change
filters and pan fluid religiously, and watch my fluid level. Yeah, it's
sort of like before. But I am not "sweating it" anymore, because of the
way my TRANS performs now. On a hot day, in stop and go traffic it will no
longer gets hot, and that lever easily and smoothly moves from P to D even
when I first start my engine, like it did the day it was race rebuilt.

OK. Now I am out of here. I am not going to argue irrelevant semantic
points, and fend spin from well intended, lovable but misguided loyalists.
I have given you good and honest advice. Call the Amsoil people yourself,
and at least actually use some logic regarding this issue. In short. Open
your mind. I just could not remain silent and let the BS rule on this
subject. Amsoil is not snake oil. I am not going to become a distributer,
but I have cleared my conscience, and my ht 3.0 MOPAR now rocks even more
than it did before.

Best wishes to all of you.

 

Sorry about the double post. When it didn;t appear, I thought I
accidentally hit reset, instead of post.

Please delete the second one.

 

Actually, there were four posts, not too. And you did at best a
mediocre job of packaging the AMSOIL "corporate spin" into a post that
was supposed to appear to be from an "average Joe" just wanting to do
the world a favor. The only thing worse than AMSOIL spam is 4X AMSOIL
spam. Try again when you learn something more about both lubricants and
posting on usenet.


Matt

 

Yes. I see now there were four replies, and not just two. I already
apologized, but just to make you happy. I apologize again. LOL!

I also see you can count to four. Please count these also then.

1. I am not a liar.

2. I honestly have nothing to do with amsoil.

3. Cynicism is one thing, but *trolling* may be a better word to describe
your post.

Go ahead and pay Daimler full synthetic prices for their semi synthetic +4
garbage. It's no skin off my nose.

 

Yes. I see now there were four replies, and not just two. I already
apologized, but just to make you happy. I apologize again. LOL!

I also see you can count to four. Please count these also then.

1. I am not a liar.

2. I honestly have nothing to do with amsoil.

3. Cynicism is one thing, but *trolling* may be a better word to describe
your post.

Go ahead and pay Daimler full synthetic prices for their semi synthetic +4
garbage. It's no skin off my nose.

 

So now +4 is garbage.

Richard.