96 LHS problem

Hello,
My sisters '96 LHS with a 3.5l and 133000 mi. was running fine until a fill
up. She says she was going down the interstate and the car began coughing,
and missing, until it finally coughed big and died; no more than 10 miles
down the road from the fill-up. It would not re-start. I suspected bad gas.
We towed the car home and got it running with a couple of bottles of Heet,
and a touch of starting fluid. The car continued to run rough and I was
thinking that any water would work it's way out eventually. After about 10
mins. of running at about 2500 rpm, I began to smell something HOT, and
looked underneath the car for any dripping. What I saw was a cherry red
exhaust, pre convertor, and shut it down. This leads me to beleive that the
convertor is plugged. I find it strange that this thing just plugged up all
at once. I'm not set up to do a convertor swap, so a muffler shop will be in
the future. Anyone got any insight on this? Am I barking up the wrong tree?
Could it still be water in the gas? Should I go ahead and change the fuel
filter first? Looking for help here. Thanks a bunch.

 

If the convertor was cherry red I would not suspect a stopped up convertor,
Normally a stopped up convertor will just not run, something is dumping alot
of raw fuel down the exhaust system or it just isnt being burnt by the
spark, the convertor is doing its job by trying to burn it up and that is
why you see it cherry red. If the problem isnt fixed then it will cause the
convertor to melt down, I would not replace the convertor untill further
investigation is done, You may have a faulty injector, injector circuit
that is causing it to stay open, a cylinder misfire or multiple cyl misfire,
Was the check engine lamp on?
Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Glenn,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, as the car was restarted and idled(forced @
approx. 2500 rpm), the check engine light was on, and it would blink off
momentarily when the engine would hesitate. As to the convertor being red
hot, it was actually the exhaust pipe from the block at the bend as it goes
horizontal to the convertor that I saw as being red. As I knew that wasn't
right, I jumped back up to shut the car off, missing the convertor color. I
might add that it was dark out when all this happened, and I don't know if
both exhausts pipes from the block were red because I was looking from the
drivers side. I just went out to check it in the light and the exhaust seems
to be a duel exhaust into a single convertor(located in relation to where
the console inside the car is located) to a single pipe that splits back
into a duel tail pipe. Is the Heet I dumped in there a problem? The engine
did seem to be running lean; kind of pingy. I attributed that to the
water/convertor issue.
--
jwald

 

Whatever you poured in the tank wont hurt it, If the check engine lite was
going off and on as you were driving it, that indicates a cylinder misfire
code.You say it was pinging, that may be a faulty crank or cam sensor
causing that and the misfire at the same time. Because that is the timing of
the engine spark. I would have the PCM scanned for all fault codes. With
that many miles on the vehicle......and if they were never replaced.......I
would replace both cam and crank sensors even if the codes are not related
to the problem. When was the last time this car had plugs and wires
installed?.

 

Glenn,
Here's an update. I drove the car to town (5mi+-) to some help. Zero power,
about 20/30 mph tops with lots of engine drop out/babying. It died about 5
times, but I made it. I got the 2 into 1convertor off and found it is not
blocked; at all. What I did find was that the right bank exhaust is COLD.
Using a digital thermometer, the left exhaust, after the #1convertor, is 390
degrees. The right exhaust is 81 degrees. It also seems to be sucking air.
To put my hand over the pipe causes a vacuum. The left side is untouchable
as expected. I found no water in the gas either. What do you think now?
HELP!!
jwald

 

what are the faults recorded??

 

Mic,
I don't know. We do not have a code reader. Sorry.
I'm thinking that it's something electrical because the plugs don't seem to
be firing( the exhuast on that side is cold ), or valves, or timing. Hell, I
don't know. I run a laundry for a living. Thanks.

 

I think you should at least have someone check the cam timing to
see if the right side cam has jumped time.

No code reader required and if the right side cam has jumped, it
won't show up in the PCM since the camshaft position sensor is on
the other side.

 

Ok if the vehicle is drivable i would not suspect a timing belt issure, by
the exhaust being cooler on one side then the other i would suspect maybe
a cylinder misfire or even 2 on the same side, thats why it is colder,The
plug(s) possibly arent firing causing it to run cooler and the raw gas is
also cooling the manifold, i new it wasnt water in the system, you need to
check to see what fault codes are in ther memory..once again, when was the
last time this engine had plugs and wires installed????

 

Ok if the vehicle is drivable i would not suspect a timing belt issure, by
the exhaust being cooler on one side then the other i would suspect maybe
a cylinder misfire or even 2 on the same side, thats why it is colder,The
plug(s) possibly arent firing causing it to run cooler and the raw gas is
also cooling the manifold, i new it wasnt water in the system, you need to
check to see what fault codes are in ther memory..once again, when was the
last time this engine had plugs and wires installed????

 

Ok if the vehicle is drivable i would not suspect a timing belt issue, by
the exhaust being cooler on one side then the other i would suspect maybe
a cylinder misfire or even 2 on the same side, thats why it is colder,The
plug(s) possibly arent firing causing it to run cooler and the raw gas is
also cooling the manifold, i new it wasnt water in the system, you need to
check to see what fault codes are in ther memory..once again, when was the
last time this engine had plugs and wires installed????Having PC issues
here now, maybe be a multiple post coming

 

Cycle the ignition key 3 times (without starting) and leave in the "on"
position, then count flashes on the "check engine" light. Those are your
codes. The procedure is detailed on allpar.com.

 

i thinki would do a compression test on the cylinders and see if that side
has some washed out valves/springs since the temp is so low

 

It's fixed. Timing belt was bad and it jumped out of time. Only problem is
that I think she got screwed on the repair bill. As she was out of town at
the time of the breakdown, I think the guy took advantage of her and
replaced a bunch of stuff that didn't seem to be needed. In addition to the
belt, she got a water pump, thermostat/gasket, a couple of pulleys, plugs,
oil change, and something else. With labor.... $790.

 

Just like I said...

As for your suspicions that she was taken advantage of;
the water pump is normally replaced when the T-belt is replaced,
and it is very likely the cause of the failure to begin with,
Spark plugs were a good call also since 3 of the cylinders were
not creating compression, they were probably fuel fouled.
T-stat, probably needed it, besides, you or we have no way of
knowing if it was working correctly, and since the coolant is
already drained to do the water pump, it's cheap preventative
maintenance.
Oil change, good call again, probably loaded with gasoline from
the dead cylinders.
Pulleys, probably the timing belt tensioner assembly, another
good call.
Hopefully, they replaced the O-rings behind the right side timing
belt cover also.

Sounds to me like your sister got a good thorough job done with
all the bases covered.

At 133K miles, you should ask her when the timing belt was last
changed, and explain to her that this is a maintenance item that
needs doing at periodic intervals.

 

On the 3.5, it makes sense to change the water pump and timing belt
tensioner pulley while you're in there, and "getting in there" is most
of the labor cost. Since you have to drain the cooling system, a
thermostat makes sense too. A tensioner and water pump might add around
$150 to the total parts cost, almost nothing to the labor cost. OTOH, if
you put it all back together and the water pump were to fail in 5000
miles, you'd be paying several hundred in labor (again) PLUS the ~150
for the parts.

The oil change and any other pulleys besides the timing-belt tensioner
would be a rip off unless they were visibly damaged for some reason.

 

I think you did great. The water pump is a must have. I can't tell what
pulleys were replaced, but that might have been warranted as well. There are
several idlers on that engine and they don't last forever, not by a long
shot. The thermostat, well, that was probably just gold plating, but of
course they're very cheap.

 

Thanks for all the help guys. Upon further reflection, I suppose the bill
was in the ball park after all. I/We were just reacting to the shock of the
repair costs. She's happy to have her car, I'm happy to not have her car. It
all works out.