300 reliability

Heavy traffic? I drive the Long Island Expressway everyday. Does
that give you an idea as to whether or not there's heavy traffic where
I live . I have no problem with the rear visibiity, it's just
something I got used to right away.

 

Good engineering is one thing, build quality is another. Chrysler
does not have the best reputation for that.

 

Can you get a Hemi in one of them? <vbg>

 

Yeah - my '96 T&C LXi is so unreliable it is now past 180,000 miles and my '93
GC Laredo (Chrysler product) is so unreliable it is now pushing toward 199,000
miles.

 

See my reply to Art!

 

Yes, I'm so upset with my 96 GV at 155,000 that I bought an 03 GC last
summer. It has only 41,000 so far, but I'm sure I'll also be very
unhappy with it by 150,000 miles. Everybody claims to have had
transmission problems, many claiming multiple transmission replacements
before they even have 100,000 miles. I feel really left out as both
transmissions in my vans are originals. I just don't get to have any
fun like every other minivan owner...


Matt

 

Even if the 300 uses suspension technology from a superceded Benz, it is
still far and away better than any other rear drive American sedan ever
made except for the more-expensive-for-what-you-get Lincoln LS. The
Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car use pickup truck suspension as did the
now extinct Capris/Roadmaster.

As for quality and reliability, the Acura would be better, but all cars
have gotten so much better over that last few years that I wouldn't be
afraid of the 300. Heck, I bought a VW Jetta diesel which Consumer
Reports says is among the worse cars for reliability, and I now have 6
months and 7,000 miles of totally troublefree driving (and 44 ave mpg
for the 7K miles).

 

I will say the my 94 lhs had sloppy fit of door panels and body parts. But
look at later models. All new ballgame. And that sloppy fit in the 94 did
not affect reliability one bit. At the time it was a break thru design
providing unprecedented passenger room and handling in a front wheel drive
sedan so I considered the sloppy fit a reasonable compromise. Later models
are put together as nicely as the best Japanese products.

 

No, they don't use "pickup truck" suspension at all- no parts at all
interchange with any pickup truck suspension system. They use simple,
low-tech rear-drive CAR suspension. And that's necessarily a bad thing?
Personally, I like the simplicity and ruggedness of a solid rear axle
and stamped-steel front suspension members that have been in use for 40
years. I've driven once such car to in excess of 430,000 miles and am
still going with it. And I have some concerns about the long-term
durability of the lightweight forged aluminmum suspension pieces on the
Magnum/300. Yeah, they handle GREAT, but the margin in handling may not
be worth the (potentially) greater risk of damaging a component in a
pothole. If they make the Magnum into a police-package car as rumored,
what do you want to bet that heavier steel suspension components are
part of the package?

 

OK. I should have said pickup truck "style" suspension, and I
exagerated a little in the case of rear suspension, as most current
pickups use leaf spring rear suspension rather than the solid axle/coil
spring arrangement used on Crown Vic/Grand Marquis/Town Car. There was
a generation or two of GM pickups, though, that used coil rear
suspension similar to what is now on Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Most 4WD
pickups now use longitudinal torsion bars on the front not unlike what
Chrysler used on cars for a number of years starting in 1957.

....and no, solid axles, stamped suspension parts, etc. are not a bad
thing in all ways. They tend to be durable and are cheap to fix. For
handling, though, they are not very good.

 

I have a good friend who works for DC. He told me that a lot of the
minivans that had to have the transmissions replaced more than once had
remaned units with qulity problems. In other words there was an issue with
the first trans from the factory on a small number of vehicles, but the
lowsy quality image came from dealers using reman transmissions which had
quality problems.

 

Its still a spurious association. Does the fact that MCI busses
(Greyhounds) use air suspension mean that cars with pneumatic suspension
use "bus style" suspension?

Yeah, that ended in about 1971.

Similar, yes. The same? No, neither in form factor nor (more
importantly) in tuning.

Nor are they very BAD. My solid-axle leaf-spring/torsion bar car handles
considrably better than my FWD 4-wheel independent MacPherson Strut car.
And its cheaper to work on the suspension as well.

 

My solid-axle, coil spring car handles considerably WORSE than my FWD
Macpherson strut/twist-beam station wagon.

 

Then you'd better fix it, cuz something's broken!

 

I find it hard to believe that in ANY test using intrumentation, that
a solid rear axle car could handle as well as an independant rear
suspension, FWD car.

Now if you are comparing a FWD car that has a solid rear axle (old
K-cars, for example) with a rear wheel drive car also with solid rear
axle, you may well be right.

The bottom line is that a car with an independant rear suspension will
always handle better than another car of equal size/weight with a
solid rear axle.

A simple test:
Turn the steering wheel full lock in one direction, then accelerate.
As you spin the car faster and faster in a circle, the rear end of the
solid rear axle car will ALWAYS break loose at a lower speed than an
equivalent (size/weight/same tires) car with independant rear
suspension.

Why? Because the outer wheel of the solid rear axle car will start to
lift from the pavement. As it lifts, it will attain a greater and
greater angle, reducing its contact with the road.

An independant rear suspension maintains the proper rear camber angle
during turns.

Now one can get into a discussion of the problems caused by the fact
that a FWD car uses its front wheels for two purposes: traction and
steering.

But that's another subject not related to the rear suspension.....

To slightly return to the original topic:
I suspect that most cars built today with independant rear suspensions
have a suspension reliability nearly equal to those with solid rear
axles.

Has anyone tried to find a mechanic these days who is truly competent
in terms of rebuilding rear differentials such as Dana 44's? It's damn
hard to find them.

Doug

 

Your ignorance is noted.

That is not correct -- there are a great many factors that go into the
equation in addition to size, weight, and type of rear suspension.

Your searching incompetence is noted.

 

Not true. For one thing, solid-axle suspension normally has a lower
roll-center than independent suspension which is an advantage. Ever
notice that independent suspensions require thicker anti-sway bars?

Why do you think the outer wheel lifts? It doesn't.

The advantage independent suspension has comes into view mainly on rough
roads- one wheel's bounces and vibrations going over potholes do not get
transmitted to the other wheel and disturb its traction.

Pretty much, but independent suspension still relies on sealed bearings
and CV joints, whereas a solid axle has internally lubricated bearings
and no CV joints to fail.

Rebuilding a Dana 44 is no different than rebuilding the (body-mounted)
differential in an independent suspension setup. In fact, Ford (for
example) uses the exact same differential internals in both solid-axle
and independent rear suspension applications. The hard part of a
rear-end rebuild is setting up the ring and pinion gear mesh and pinion
bearing preloads, and that has to be done regardless of whether or not
the axle is solid.

 

The center of gravity of the vehicle shifts towards the center of the circle
being traveled.
The mass of the vehicle, in effect, shifts towards the inside wheel, putting
downward force on the inside wheel
and lifting the outside wheel. Ever see those rollover tests Consumer
Reports does on their track?

From the comments below, I think we are talking about different suspensions.
I think you are referring to four wheel drive vehicles.
I wasn't. Thus my comments about the reliability of independant suspensions.
Another advantage of independent rear suspensions is that they generally
offer much less unsprung weight
compared with solid axles. That improves both ride and handling.

Huh?
As mentioned, not all independant suspensions have driven wheels.
Not all have CV joints. My Honda multi-link rear suspension certainly
doesn't.
I was talking about independant suspension in general, not those in 4wd
vehicles.

Yep, and from my experience, most guys in my area do not set the preload
properly. Most of them order replacements from a centralized rebuilding
factory
rather than tackle it themselves. But again, I wasn't referring to
independant suspensions with differentials.

Doug

 

If I read you correctly, you're saying that if you take a corner too
fast in a vehicle with solid rear axle, that it will tend to flip over
towards the center of radius of the turn? I don't think so. The center
of gravity does not move, but the combined force vector of gravity and
inertia points outward rather than straight downward as when standing
still or traveling in a straight line.

When you turn at speed, the downward force of the vehicle pushes down
harder on the outer wheel and less on the inner wheel. Also, there is a
moment created by the sideways force on the outer wheel that tends to
lift the inner wheel. If power is applied, the inner wheel will spin
because it is not pressing as hard on the pavement as the outer wheel.
When the moment force that tends to lift the inner wheel becomes greater
than the lessened downward force of the vehicle on the inner wheel, the
inner wheel will lift. Meanwhile, the outer wheel is pushed downward
with maximum force. Depending on height of CG, the vehicle may flip (to
the outside as the inner wheel comes off the pavement).

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")

 

Funny, our 1993 Caravan at work currently has 270,000 miles, and it is
running on the *original* A-607 transmission. The only thing done to it
is a tranny fluid flush and regular oil changes. And if the
caravans/voyagers/town & countries are so bad then why do I see at least
20+ a day roaming around town?