300 M Battery Replacement?

I have a '99 , 300M - took delivery in August 1998... Still has the original
battery and it seems to be doing fine. Anyone in ths group ever change out
the battery on 300M... advice appreciated... thanks

 

Yep (well - a '99 Concorde - same car as far as battery replacement).
The by-the-book procedure is to jack up and remove the passenger side
front wheel, remove the fender liner, open the hood and remove the air
filter box (for access to cable clamps from above), then scoot the
battery rearward and bring it out thru the wheel well. Some prefer to
leave the wheel totally alone, remove air filter box, then tilt the
battery up lengthwise and pull it up thru that hole. In this case, I go
by the book - too much chance of battery acid spillage using the
shortcut method.

If you don't mind spending around $120 (total, including shipping or
sales tax as the case may be), you might do what I did and get an Optima
(you would want the Model 34, P/N 8002-002) so you won't ever have to
mess with it again.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Nothing special about the Optima. Just make sure you pick up a fresh sealed
battery [without vent caps]. NAPA and Wal-Mart batteries did well in the
last round of tests by Consumer Reports. Sears batteries, now supplied by a
new vender, did not do very well at all.

Richard.

 

Nothing personal, but you speak from total ignorance. The Optima is
different in several good ways. (Let me guess - Consumer Reports said
there was nothing special about the Optima. Figures.)

Optima (compared to "traditional" battery):
**VERY** **VERY** robust mechanically and electrically, and smaller
physical size. Lasts 10+ years (vs. typically 3 to 5 years).

It is what is referred to as a gel cell, not liquid electrolyte like the
batteries that you are ignorantly comparing it to. Also, FWIW, you can
safely put an Optima in an occupied passenger compartment and not have
to worry about toxic acid fumes endangering health or eating holes in
fabrics. You can mount an Optima in any orientation.

Other than those things mentioned above - you're right - nothing speical
about an Optima.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I saw that Consumer Reports article. I was confused by it, since it the same
battery was all over their charts under different brand names. But that's CR
for you.

Most Sears batteries (including the Gold Diehard) are now made by Johnson
Controls. They used to be made by Exide 4+ years ago, but Exide had some major
quality control problems and contracted specifications were not met. Legal
disputes ensued (customer vs. Sears Roebuck, and Sears Roebuck vs Exide) and
Sears found a new vendor. JCI also makes Optima. Most auto batteries in the
USA today are made by either JCI or Exide, with a handful of smaller players.
I'm not sure if either is better now.

 

Point of clarification, the factory service manual (and the owner's manual for
that manner) says not to remove the wheel. I think the aftermarket books say the
opposite.

 

Sears sells the Optimas both yellow and red tops also yo can get them at
Advanced Auto stores.

 

Originally posted Sept 2004:

Executive summary:

1) If you want a lot of reserve capacity, you probably have no choice
but will end up getting a battery with lot of CCA.

2) Get the biggest, heaviest battery that will fit in your car.

3) The Reserve Capacity may be a better predictor of battery capacity
than the CCA rating.

4) Unless the newer spiral-wound batteries have inherently higher
energy densities, then their CCA and RC numbers are bogus and
you are making a trade-off (lower CCA's and RC's) vs getting
a battery that probably is better for off-roading and vibration
tolerance but is no better (durability-wise) for passenger car
use than a standard AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery.

5) When selecting a battery off-the-shelf, get the "freshest" or
newest date-code the retailer has in the store. This may mean
the battery you want is in the back room and not on the rack
in front of you. Date code explanations for particular brands
are further down this post. Consult the internet if you can't
find what you're looking for. Perhaps the best time to buy a
battery is when a retailer has sold a bunch to other customers
(clearing their older inventory). This presumably would be
during mid or late winter.

-------------------------

I don't necessarily believe that the Optima line of batteries is the
"best" from an energy density point of view (the spiral design does
not make the best use of the available rectangular exterior envelope
compared to conventional battery construction). It might very well be
that shelf-life was the over-riding design criteria for this battery.
Shelf life is probably _the_ most important issue for retailers.

Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) and reserve capacity are probably the two
most important numbers to look at when selecting a battery since other
objective criteria, like MTBF, accelerated life tests (vibration and
temperature extremes) are not readily available to compare across
manufacturers. Unlike many other types of consumer products (digital
cameras, car tires, many electronic product, etc) there are no
third-party-operated web sites that track, organize, and tabulate the
experience of consumers when it comes to car batteries, let alone take
the batteries apart and make subjective comparisons between
manufacturers (as has been done with oil filters for example).

This web site:

http://www.bgsoflex.com/cca.htm

will give you the CCA number given engine size and # of cylinders as
inputs. For example, a 3.5L V-6 (214 cubic inches) gives a computed
CCA of 285.

It is generally the consensus that you should NOT sacrifice reserve
capacity for the sake of having a large CCA. For example, if I had
the choice between the following batteries:

A) 400 CCA and 120 minutes reserve capacity
B) 800 CCA and 90 minutes reserve capacity

Then it seems that battery (A) will, in the long run, be a better
choice because I'm not likely to ever need more than 400 CCA while on
the other hand the extra 30 minutes of reserve capacity may actually
be needed at some point. In other words, batteries can never convert
un-needed CCA's into extra reserve minutes.

One thing must always be kept in mind. Once you choose a battery make
and model, buy the "freshest" battery in store (which, it seems, will
not necessarily be on the battery rack but instead in the back room).

I found the following web site to have useful battery information:

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/

And particulary these pages:

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batbrand.htm

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq7.htm#rc

This paragraph is interesting:

----------
7.6. Freshness

Lead-acid batteries are perishable and sulfate in storage due to their
natural self discharge. Please see Section 16 for more information on
sulfation.

Determining the "freshness" of a battery is sometimes difficult.
Unless it has been periodically recharged or "dry charged", NEVER buy
a wet Standard (Sb/Sb) or Low Maintenance (Sb/Ca) battery that is MORE
than three months old or a wet Maintenance Free (Ca/Ca) battery that
is MORE than six months old. Dry charged batteries are shipped without
electrolyte, but usually have "sell by" dates of one to three years.
Depending on the temperature, AGM and Gel Cell batteries that can be
stored six to 18 months before the State-of-Charge drops below 80%.
Please see Section 16. for more information on sulfation. Dealers will
place their older batteries in storage racks so they will sell first
and they do not have to maintain them. The fresher batteries can be
found in the rear of the battery rack or in a storage room. For a wet
battery, the date of formation is often stamped on the case or printed
on a sticker. Always have a new battery tested, and recharged if
necessary, before you leave the store. This can save you a lot of time
and frustration if the new battery is sulfated or has a manufacturing
defect.
--------------

Here is the complete section on battery date codes:

------------
The battery date codes for various manufacturers is perhaps the most
useful information to have when you're actually at the parts counter
about to buy a battery.

Some of the manufacturer's formation date coding techniques are as
follows:

7.6.1. Delphi (ACDelco) and some Sears DieHard

Dates are stamped on the cover near one post. The first number is the
year. The second character is the month A-M, skipping I. The last two
characters indicate geographic areas. For example, 0BN3=2000 February.

[Source: Interstate Batteries]

7.6.2. Douglas

Douglas uses the letters of their name to indicate the year of
manufacture and the digits 1-12 for the month. D=1994 O=1995 U=1996
G=1997 L=1998 A=1999 S=2000 For example, S02=2000 Feb.

7.6.3. East Penn, Exide (Champion), Johnson Controls Inc., Interstate,
Mopar (Chrysler) and some Sears DieHard)

Usually on a sticker or hot-stamped on the side of the case.
A=January, B=February, and the letter I is skipped. The number next to
the letter is the year of shipment. For example, B0=Feb 2000.

[Source: Interstate Batteries]

7.6.4. Exide (some Sears non-Gold DieHards)

The fourth or fifth character is the month. The following numeric
character is the year. A-M skipping I. For example, RO8B0B=February
2000.

[Source: Interstate Batteries]

7.6.5. Optima

The first character is the year. The following three numeric
characters are the days of the year. For example, 3123=3 May 2003.

7.6.6. Trojan

The date code on the negative post is stamped as the battery comes off
of the finishing line, ready to ship out or go into stock. The code
that is stamped is usually one month ahead. Therefore, a battery that
comes out in March will carry an April date code. The code on the
positive post is the manufacturing date that indicates when the
battery was physically built but before the addition of any
electrolyte. The letter is the month (A=Jan, B=Feb, C=March, etc.) and
the number is the actual date. So "K26" means that the battery was
ready for electrolyte filling and the first forming charge was on
November 26th. Since the negative post shows A2 (January 2002), the
manufacturing year has to be 2001.

7.6.7. Concorde

The activation date is on an orange sticker the shipping carton or
email Concorde Customer Service with the serial number of the battery.

7.6.8. Rolls and Surrette

The four digit date code represents the day of the week (first digit),
week of the year (middle two digits) and the year (last digit). For
example, April 4, 2003 would have 4143 as a date code. The date code
is stamped into the front edge of the cover of the battery.

------------------------

I can't see how all Spiral Wound AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries
_wouldn't_ be lighter than regular rectangular batteries of the same
external size.

FYI - Excide also seems to make a spiral-wound battery (Select
Orbital):

http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/exide_select_orbital.html

Using the numbers from the specs for the Exide ORB78D-84, I get a
predicted weight of 44 lbs, where according to it's specs it weighs 38
lbs.

I found some specs on "DayStarter" batteries (St. Paul, Minnesota) and
their group-34 battery has 600 CCA and RC of 110 minutes.

The following was computed based on data from 19 batteries in a list
of 12-volt passenger car and light commercial battery specifications
(January 2004) from http://www.daystarter.com/.

Battery weight vs Battery volume:

Weight = 0.0716 x V + 2.9
(r = .86)

Where V is the volume (in cubic inches) of the battery calculated by
multiplying the length by width by height. Volumes ranged from 432 to
734 cubic inches, and weights ranged from 34 to 56 lbs. So (as
expected) battery volume and weight correlate pretty well.

CCA vs weight:

CCA = 8.54 x W + 212
(r = .807)

Where W is the battery weight (in lbs) and CCA is the Cold Cranking
Amp rating at 0 degrees F. Interesting that it predicts 212 CCA at
zero battery weight.

CCA vs volume:

CCA = .647 x V + 218
(r = .778)

Where V is battery volume (in cubic inches). Again it predicts a CCA
of a little over 200 at zero battery volume.

Weight is slightly better than external volume at predicting a
battery's CCA.

Regarding reserve capacity (RC):

RC vs weight:

RC = 2.88 x W - 23
(r = .885)

Where RC is reserve capacity (in minutes) and W is battery weight
(lbs).

RC vs volume:

RC = .216 x V - 20
(r = .836)

Where V is battery volume (cubic inches).

Again weight is slightly better than external battery volume at
predicting reserve capacity. Interesting that at zero weight and
volume that it predicts about negative 20 for RC.

How does CCA correspond to RC?

RC = .317 x CCA - 83
(r = .968)

It's the strongest correlation.

So, what does all this mean?

1) Big batteries weigh more (tone down the wise-cracks)
2) Both weight and volume correspond with higher CCA's and higher RC.
3) CCA's correspond strongly with RC.
4) RC correlates better with both weight and volume than CCA does.
5) I'm thinking that Daystarter inflates their CCA by 200, and their
RC by 20 minutes (judging by the zero intercept of these graphs).

Executive summary:

1) If you want a lot of reserve capacity, you probably have no choice
but will get a lot of CCA with it.
2) Get the biggest, heaviest battery that will fit in your car.
3) The Reserve Capacity may be a better predictor of battery capacity
than the CCA rating.

4) Unless the newer spiral-wound batteries have inherently higher
energy densities, then their CCA and RC numbers are bogus and you are
making a trade-off (lower CCA's and RC's) vs getting a battery that
probably is better for off-roading and vibration tolerance but is no
better (durability-wise) for passenger car use than a standard AGM
(Absorbed Glass Mat) battery.

 

You have to watch your pricing and model for the best deal. When I
replaced my battery a couple of years ago, Advance listed the Optima 34
at $175 - out of the question. But I did an on-line search and found
that there were suppliers with shared warehouses distributed around the
country so that anyone in the U.S. was within 1 day UPS ground shipment
- price with shipping: under $120.

Advance only stocks the 34/78 (dual terminal - top and side) version to
cut down on inventory items. IIRC, the 34/78 is about the same price as
the 34, but you sacrifice cranking amps - so you're essentially paying
for the extra terminals that you won't use. Better to shop on line for
the 34 for the best bang for the buck. Not sure which one(s) Sears
stocks and their pricing.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

If your examples (400 CCA, RC 120; 800 CCA, RC 90) are somewhat typical
of AGM's, then it would seem that the Optima 34's 800 CCA (0°F)/1000MCA
(32°F) and RC of 120 minutes stacks up pretty well. Also - it is
considrably smaller (10" x 6.9" x 7.8") than the OEM 600 CCA, RC 120 AGM
battery that it replaced - would that (smaller size, similar or better
electrical performance) not indicate higher energy density?

Not to mention that the Optima will easiy last 2 to 3 times longer.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

I just checked my FSM, and you are correct - I was working from memory -
always dangerous. I just found it easier to remove the wheel for better
access from the side. On a lift, maybe it would be just as easy working
from underneath with the wheel turned to the right.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

NOT fun--will need to remove the right front tire and the panel that is part
of the front of the right wheel well and it will make it a lot easier if you
remove the air filter also--that way you will have access from below behind
the battery and above it... more or less. Good luck.

MikeSp

 

There is little objective evidence to support the claim that the Optima will
easily last 2 to 3 time longer. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong
with the technology behind the Optima design, but a well designed and built
conventional battery is far less expensive and will provide about the same
level of performance. A sealed conventional battery shares the same
advantage in that regard as a sealed Optima, at a far lower cost to the
consumer.

Richard.

 

Therefore you assume it's not true? What is *your* objective evidence?

I think over the years that I have been reading three Chrysler- and
LH-car-specific forums that I have seen a total of *one* post saying
that someone had an Optima fail. If they were as prone to failure after
3 to 5 years as traditional batteries, that is the kind of thing that
people would be posting about right and left as people love to attack a
leader and a false claim. The absence of such posts, though not
"scientific", to me is a huge indicator. Traditional battery failure
posts occur constantly.

I would *not* agree that a conventional battery is far lower cost if the
longevity of the Optima is realized. I can say that I would very likely
have replaced my original battery with a good AGM battery had it not
been as difficult to get to. I bought the Optima specifically based on
the 10+ year expectation - not that it's that big of a deal to replace
it, but I wanted it to be the last battery I'd buy for that particular
car. All my other cars get convenional batteries put back in them when
they go bad (and they do go bad - which, again, I can't say about the
Optima).

Here's a question for the readership: Anyone here ever have an Optima
battery fail?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

The poster who started this string has the OEM battery and he reports that
it is still going string. My sister got 11 years out of her OEM Honda
battery. Some conventional batteries seem to deliver the goods over an
extended period of time. It is a proven and mature technology that can be
quite cost effective.

Richard.

 

That is pretty good. My best ever was 9 years on the OEM Delco in my 86
Jeep Comanche. I've had a few batteries last 7 years, but 3-6 is more
typical. My minivans are particularly hard on batteries. I've never
had one last more than 4 years, and have collected twice on batter
warranties. I'm not sure why, but they seem to be very hot underhood
and I'm wondering if it is heat that is killing the batteries early.

My pickup trucks have always had much better battery life and they have
nice open underhood areas and run much cooler than the tightly packed
minivans.


Matt

 

After 6.5 years I finally decided to replace my 300M battery. Since the OEM
was so good I let the dealer replace it when they quoted a reasonable price.

 

Optima batteries are simply AGM batteries that are spiral-wound.

Conventional car batteries (sometimes called "flooded") use flat lead
plates that are mounted (or suspeneded) in liquid electrolyte. The
plates are not made with pure lead because pure lead is soft and
malleable (deformable) and so a lead alloy is used. These batteries
need periodic servicing to make sure the water level doesn't drop
below the level of the places.

AGM batteries have a starved electrolyte design because they contain
electrolyte only in the sponge-like separator between the plates. The
glass mat allows the lead plates to be sandwiched together, giving
them stability. This allows the plates to be made with pure lead (not
an alloy). AGM batteries are practically maintanence free (they lose
practically no water). They stand up better to vibration and shock.

Spiral wound AGM batteries (like the Optima) are just a different way
to make an AGM battery. They are said to be even better at vibration
and shock resistance. I'm thinking that Optima's really only have an
advantage in racing, off-road, and marine applications. I believe
that a spiral-wound AGM battery will have a lower energy-density than
a rectangular (stacked) AGM battery because of the volume that is lost
due to the circular packing.

AGM batteries (particulary Optima) are used extensively by car
modifiers that put lots of electronics and audio equipment in their
cars because AGM batteries can be mounted in more positions than
regular flooded-type batteries.

AGM batteries have a down-side compared to regular "flooded" type
batteries. When high temperature or voltage causes AGM batteries to
gas, they dry out relatively quickly because they have much less
electrolyte than batteries with a liquid electrolyte reservoir above
the plates. They also may not have as high a "reserve capacity" as
flooded-type batteries.

There is really nothing written that explains why an Optima battery
would last longer than a flat-stack AGM battery. It could be that
there is a marginal increase in physical stability of the spiral
winding, but unless you do a lot of off-roading, I can't see a regular
passenger car putting a high vibrational demand on a battery that
would make the optima stand out.

Remember again that AGM batteries will gas out their electrolyte if
they get too hot or are charged with too high a charging voltage. If
an AGM battery loses some of it's electrolyte, you can never put it
back, and it will lose capacity that way. I have to wonder if even a
flat-stack AGM battery is really something I want to put into my 300M
vs a conventional flooded battery.

Here are a few tid-bits about Optima:

-----------

http://www.carsound.com/cgi-bin/UBB_CGI/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000292;p=0

posted March 04, 2005

I've had nothing but bad luck with optimas and I'm not the only one
around here. I would NEVER suggest using an optima in a case where it
might be deep cycled (running no alt). Deep cycle these things once
and they very rarely come back to life at all. There are plenty of
other good batteries out there that will have better chances of
longevity and actually cost less. Look at Deka, SVR and my favorite,
Hawker.

Jump start an optima once or twice (if you lucky you get two chances)
and in my experience it's dead as a doornail, that's all I'm saying,
it has nothing to do with the fact that it's in a racecar per say.

----------

http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjprojects/toughenough/projte.htm

The Workaholic uses new technology called Absorbed Glass Mat. This
design increases vibration resistance and allows the battery to be
fully sealed reducing the possibility of corrosion or leakage under
the tough conditions encountered off-road. Tests have shown this
battery to have better vibration resistance than the Optima battery it
directly competes against in the off-road marketplace.

Update: Interstate Batteries no longer makes their own sealed
batteries. They sell Optima batteries.

-------

 

thanks Richard -- that is encouragine news... I am the original poster and
have gained much knowledge from the posts..Will run the original until she
stops, and will give the feedback to the group . thanks to each of
you..Ralph G.

 

Bill, I hate to break it to you but we replace gel-cells in UPSs all the
time.

Yes, your Optima will not have some of the mechanical problems
that a wet call can have. No, you won't get to 'never mess with it
again' unless your car doesen't live that long. (no, 10 years is not
that long, at least not in my book, maybe in yours) It is also
subject to overcharging (if the VR goes tits up) and sulphating if
it's left discharged for a long period, just like a regular battery.

For a vehicle with an ass-backwards design for where the battery
goes, there's an advantage to a gel cell. But for regular cars?
Well, let me put it this way - Optimas sell around here for $120
and they never go on sale. Wet cells, even the absurdly long
warranted ones, generally sell for under $60, and go on sale
periodically. If I get 10 years out of an Optima and 5 years out
of a wet cell, and the Optima costs double, tell me again where
I've saved the money?

Eventually the Optima people will lose the "kewel" factor on
their new battery and will start feeling the pinch of competition,
then maybe they might start price-competing with regular batteries,
when that happens I'll sit up and take notice. Until then I don't
see the advantage.

Ted