2002 Sebring Electrical Failure...Battery?

I've been around (& under) cars for the better part of my 50+ years and
can't figure this one out:

Car: 2002 Sebring Conv. V6/all bells & buzzers, etc. Everything works
fine.

Problem:
Car was fine for 2 years, then, at a shopping center parking lot it
absolutely refused to turn-over - all electrical functions were gone as
if the battery was completely dead. Car was jumped but wouldn't idle,
so towed to dealership. They jumped it, it ran fine and they kept the
car for a week trying to duplicate the problem by starting it every
morning/evening. I called them and asked them to actually drive the
car, since the problem might be heat/vibration related. They drove the
car around, parked it at the lube rack for a scheduled oil change. The
lube guy got into the car & it was completely dead. Of course, he
jumped the car, making diagnosos impossible.
My problem is this: I don't trust the car since it can happen anytime
anywhere. The car has Chrysler extended warranty, but the dealer says
that he can't fix it until they can diagnosis the actual problem & that
I'm to drive the car until the "component at fault fails." They say
that the charging system is fine, etc. Question: Has anyone had a
battery that just "totally discharged?" It seems that if it completely
lost its charge in under 15 minutes, there'd be at least smoke or
noticeable heat generated somewhere in the system.
Any and all suggestions and help sincerely appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill.

 

Assuming when you mean totally dead you mean no power to anything, dome
lites, radio all that ? It is more then likely a loose/corroded connection
and with a volt meter in hand and when it happens a simple voltage drop test
would locate the problem.

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Glenn:
Yes, I mean totally dead - just as if the cables had been disconnected.
My frustration (& the dealer's) is that the problem must present
itself before the faulty connection/component can be identified. The
dealer said they checked everything, but evidently Chrysler extended
warranty does not pay them until they diagnose the actual problem -
hence there's little incentive for them to really dig into it. Very
frustrating situation.
Bill.

 

Depending on what contract you have with Chrysler Would determine if the
repair would even be covered when they located it. The Max care plan would
be the best to buy but even those plans will not pay diagnostic time unless
there is a failed part or if the repair is under a TSB. I go thru this all
the time at the dealer. The Technicians want to fix the car and want to get
paid for it. the owners say they have a service contract... but its the
owners responsibility to authorize all check out time until the problem is
located and verified if it is a covered repair.
Have you checked the battery installation your self to make sure the
terminals are tight? Does the radio reset the stations and the clock reset
to 12:00 when this happens to verify a battery problem? Have you tried to
wiggle grounds and battery feeds to duplicate the problem?

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Glenn
Chrysler said it's covered, once it's found (!) As I recall (it's been
6 months now since the first of 2 episodes) the clock/radio had to be
reset. I'll probably get under the car and check ground connections,
etc. Since I'm involved with mostly older Porsche 911s, it's about all
I feel comfortable with. Example: From on top of the engine
compartment, I can't even trace the + battery cable visually. One
problem that was addressed (under warranty) was a leaking thermostat
housing. I asked the service rep if this could be related to the
electrical issue, seeping fluid down onto the alternator, etc. below it
especially when the hot motor has been turned off. He said no -
however since the leak was fixed, the electrical problem has not shown
itself.
Question: Have you (or anyone reading this thread) ever had a newer
battery just "go bad" and dump it's charge? I & my wrench-head friends
can't actually remember such an incident.
Bill.

 

To nail this one you have to start carrying a multimeter in the car. The
next
time it happens, pop the hood and measure voltage at the battery terminals
when someone tries starting the car. If there is 12 volts and the voltage
doesent change when the key is turned then it's probably bad battery cables.

However if the voltage drops to zero, then the battery has been discharged
and you have something else happening. The problem is you probably have a
bad starter.
Here is the reasoning. In order to drop a fresh battery dead in 15 minutes
you have to have a massive short across the battery that will carry many
many
amps of current.

No wiring in the vehicle EXCEPT the battery cables from the battery to the
starter can carry that amount of current without instantly melting.
Furthermore,
few components in the car can tolerate that much current flowing through
them without catching fire and burning up. The starter is one of these that
can tolerate it.

What is going on is you have a loose screw or some such in the starter. 99%
of the time it works fine. 1% of the time the starter spins down and jams
the
screw or ends up in a funny position. The next time you start the car the
second
the selonoid switches on it presents practically a direct short to the
battery,
and you get hundreds of amps dumped into the starter, The starter does not
turn over, and the battery gets almost immediately drained. You tow the car
somewhere and the bumping and banging jostles the starter and gets it
unstuck.

Ted

 

Ted:
Great diagnosis....I'll get under there this weekend & maybe see what's
going on. I was told by a dealer mechanic (not service advisor) that
if I check anything myself to leave no "footprint", as any attempted
repair/tampering by non-authorized repair station can screw-up the
extended warranty.
Thanks again to you & Glenn. If you hear on the network news that
someone's charred remains were found in Calif. under a melted ball of
Sebring, you'll know that I at least located the problem!
Bill.

 

So you yourself haven't checked the Battery terminals at the battery? I have
seen batteries get installed and this happen down the road many times,
especially with the side post terminals.
Me personally, not a starter problem.

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Glenn:
I'll be double checking those too - the dealer service advisor said
they checked them, but I have little faith in him at this point.
Thanks,
Bill.

 

Not a chance. Even a direct short wouldn't "immediately" drain the battery, and
a short like that would have the insulation dripping from the battery cables.
Not to mention a smoke cloud.

 

u have a battery / charging system issue and it could be as simple as a
bad battery and that also has poor connections (common issue) poor
quality excide battery that even kmart dropped and if the battery did die
then the pcm has to relearn the idle and that could be idle issue and i
have seen it a 1000 times

 

hehehe most people including engineers don't know what a voltage drop test is

 

B.S.! Anyone who knows Ohm's law knows what a voltage drop test is.
What kind of engineers are you hanging out with?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

well lets see i worked at the gm provig grounds for 5 years and near the d/c tech
center for 7
you would be surprized

 

As others have said you need to search around with a voltmeter or test
lamp when the problem happens. Intermittent problem are the hardest to
locate in any device, have patience with your dealer.
My wife often laughs at me when I struggle with a problem for several
days, even partly dismantling a device. She understands when only one
trip to the dealer is necessary to resolve it or I fix it myself for a
few dollars.
How frustrating it is when the dealer doesn't pass my diagnosis on to
the shop and my car is returned the same. It's happened a few times and
when I get to communicate directly with the mechanic he quickly
recognizes the cause.

I had it happen twice overnight with two bad Sears Diehard < batteries.

If only the Sebring had the battery in an easily accessible location
your diagnosis would be much easier.

 

take a dvom and place each lead on the battery terminals and trun on the head
lites if the meter reading drops to say 3 volts then u have a bad ground
reverse the leads and redo test if the voltage drops to 3 volts then u have a
bad power connection

 

What you just posted makes no sense whatsoever. Either you didn't say
what you intended to say or you know nothing about electricity.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

minus my bad spelling it makes no sense to you because u have no idea how to test
for a voltage drop

 

Let's see - I'm a degreed and licensed engineer, been doing circuit
design for 20+ years, and I don't know how to check for a voltage drop?
OK - whatever you say.

You don't say specifically which terminals to put the leads on (nor
where on those terminals - i.e, on the battery terminal/post itself or
on the cable clamp around the post) and you don't say what you mean by
"reversing" the leads.

Normally reversing the leads means putting the positive (red) meter lead
where the negative (black) lead was and vice-versa, but that can't be
right because you claim that that will tell you whether you have a bad
ground or a bad power connection - which is pure b.s. going by what the
rest of the world understands the phrase "reversing the leads" to mean.

And you don't say which way to apply the leads first - you simply imply
that no matter which way you apply them first will tell you you have a
bad ground, and when you "reverse" them, that will tell you if you have
a bad power connection. You may know what you are doing and can do it
yourself, but - if that's the case - you sure lack the verbal skills to
tell someone else how to do it. I defy you to take any non-technical
person to try to follow your posted directions and not have at least 3
valid questions before they're half-way thru the process. And any
technical person is going to tell you that you either don't know what
you're talking about or you simply lack the means to express it.

Care to try again with specifics of exactly where to apply the leads
(positive terminal?, negative terminal?, battery post? or cable clamp?,
etc. etc., etc.)? BTW - reversing the leads doesn't come into play
you're looking for a voltage drop - the + or - sign is going to depend
on which direction you have the leads - but whether you're testing for
bad ground or bad power connection will not - all you care about is "Is
there a voltage drop" - polarity is not what matters (it is determined
by the direction of lead placement relativ to the current flow) -
*amplitude* (of voltage drop) tells all in this case.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')