2001 Intrips SE Windows Fogging

I have a 2001 2.7L Dodge Intrepid SE (base model w/69K miles) that has been
very reliable and served me well, but I am experiencing a "problem" and
would appreciate others thoughts.

When the outside temperature is cold (and I will define cold here to mean
somewhere below 10-15 degrees F), if I try to set the air outlet control to
the heater position (even when the car is 100% warmed up), then all of the
windows in the car (this includes the rear window, side windows, and the
front widshield) fog up (and will actually freeze) making visibility
impossible. The only solution is to run the defroster 100% of the time and
even then, if it is extremely cold (like it is today with the temperature
f -6 degrees F on my way into work), then the side windows will still
freeze up even with the defroster blowing hot air at full force.

I've attempted to clean the windows thoroughly without any change in this
condition and also tried to look for any possible source for the water
vapor, but also without success. The engine coolant level is normal and is
not leaking. The coolant temperature gauge goes to the normal/mid-scale
position when the car warms up (5-10 minutes) and the outlet control and
blower speed both seem to work properly since air comes out of the
appropriate outlet dependent on the knob position. The Air Conditioner also
works perfectly and the compressor clutch engages on warmer days when the
defroster position is selected.

At this point I am at a loss to explain this behavior and would appreciate
knowing if other Intrepid owners experience the same issue or if someone has
any idea on what I can look for to see where this moisture comes from. (I
know some of it comes from breathing, but this has NEVER been a problem with
any other vehicles and they generally carry more passengers than I do in
this car. Thanks in advance for all thoughts.

Bob

 

Bob - You seem to have just about covered most of the bases. One thing
you danced around a couple of times but without really stating
explicitly is if the air that is coming out of the correct vents is
actually warm or not. Since you appear to have eliminated that moisture
is leaking into the ducting from the heater core and confirmed that the
a.c. is working in defrost mode, I am going to assume that the problem
is that the air is not getting warm.

Three possible causes that I can think of, and I have read on the LH car
forums of all three of these occurring:
(1) The heater core is clogged, so, even though your engine is cooling
fine, the coolant is not circulating thru the heater core.
(2) Your coolant may be low or have an air pocket (actually they are one
and the same) - leaving you enough coolant to cool the engine fine, but,
again, leaving the heater core without circulating warm coolant.
(3) The blend door is not operating correctly. That door is a vane that
determine what proportion of the air forced by the fan is going thru the
heater core fins vs. going around (bypassing) the heater core.

That's my best shot. Obviously the best scenario would be no. (2) or
(3) - and they are both definitely possible. Like I said, I have read
many posts by people on the LH car forums where any one of the three has
happened.

If the air coming out of the ducting is in fact warm, then, with your
having covered the other bases, I'm at a loss as the things I came up
with only address the air coming out of the ducts not being warm.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Bill,

As always, thanks for your thoughts. The air that is exiting the defroster
and the heater are definitely warm to hot. They can fully warm the vehicle
if I drive ~25-30 minutes with an outside air temp of -6F. I will have to
take a look a the blend door when the weather gets warmer. Is there
supposed to always be "some" leakage to the windshield defroster vents even
when on the heater setting? All I can figure is that nothing at all gets
directed there and the extreme cold, coupled with the vehicle speed is
chilling the windshield. If I heat the passenger compartment using the
heater setting, then the moisture from my breath is being absorbed into the
warmed air and then condensing on the cold windshield and side windows.
Only when the setting is moved to defrost and after the windshield and side
windows warm sufficiently does the condensation stop and I get regular
visibility.

If anyone has any other thoughts, let me know!

Bob

 

Thanks, Bob.

I'm thinking that that sentence is the key to your problem. You need to
put it in defrost from the start. No - there won't be any heat at that
point, but the a.c. will run to pull moisture out of the air - that's
how it is designed to work. You're not allowing the system to do its job.

Glenn - others - aren't I right on that?

Anyway, Bob - try that and see.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Yup.
No different than how my 98 was behaving on Sunday when
temperatures were similar. (-9)
Got to warm the windshield enough that inside moisture doesn't
condense, you can switch to dash vents and aim the two outboard
ones at the side windows but then the windshield starts to fog up.
Lot of square inches to the LH windshield...

 

Check the condensate drain. If the water cant get out after its been
collected, it will create the condition you describe.

 

I will check the condensate drain as Deke suggested, but had not been
experiencing any issues over the summer when the AC ran regularly and there
was always a puddle of water under the front passenger side of the vehicle.

With every other vehicle I have ever owned, I have been able to use the
"heat" (floor outlet) or vent (dash outlet) settings, even in super-cold
weather. Occasionally I might need to run the defroster or select a setting
that provided a mix of both floor and defrost to clear the windshield, but
this car is completely different! If I even attempt to turn the control
knob to any other setting other than full defrost mode, my windshield and
side windows frost over and I lose visibility. In addition, no matter how
long I run the defroster when it is really cold outside (below zero F), even
to the point where the front windshield and both side front windows are
completely clear, and it is actually uncomfortable because it is so warm in
the car, the rear windows will still stay completely frosted over. I can
run the electric rear window defogger and this clears the rear window so
there is visibility, but the rear side windows just never seem to clear up
at all.

I really think that there must be some other source for this moisture, but I
simply can't find it! If it is not the coolant, and not from the
passengers, and not already in the trapped air in the vehicle (which is also
sub-zero so should be very dry), then where does it come from? By the way,
it has done this since I've owned it (4 years), but only gets really
annoying when the temperatures dip to around zero F. Unfortunately, this
winter is just plain cold so it is worse than it has been the last few
years. As additional info. I'm getting ready to hand down this vehicle to
my son this Spring and would like to solve this permanently so that he does
not have this trouble next winter.

Bob

 

At those temperatures the condensate may be freezing in the drain
and causing a backup.
It sounds to me like condensate is the most likely culprit.
Have you checked under the floor mats to ensure you don't have
excess moisture there?

 

(snip)

That puddle of water is the first indication that the drain is clogged. You
had issues this summer.
Your drain is clogged. Unclog it, and no puddle, no window
condensation.

Deke

 

As suggested make sure the drain is not stopped up. If there is a lot of
moisture in the vehicle be it from wet carpet (rain or snow) it will take
awhile to get the moisture out. But if the windows are still damp inside
after the engine coolant is at operating temps and the moisture is still in
the vehicle there is something wrong. Make sure the RECIRC door is working.
If the recirc door is closed, it will take a long time to get the moisture
out. It wouldn't hurt to do a recalibration on the system.
With the vehicle at room temperature (Garage) 10°-27° C. (50° to 80° F.),
Disconnect the battery

for ten minutes to erase DTCs.

2. Reconnect the battery and start the vehicle, this will initiate the HVAC
system calibration.

Allow approximately five minutes for the calibration to complete.

3. Operate the vehicle and HVAC system to verify that Symptoms and/or DTCs
are gone.

 

Deke - I think you mis-read where he said "had not been experiencing any
issues over the summer when the AC ran regularly and there was always a
puddle of water under the front passenger side of the vehicle." I read
it wrong the first time too. He's saying that the drain drains onto the
ground ("...under the front passenger side of the vehicle") just like
it's supposed to.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

He's got the base model, Glenn - i.e., manual temp controls, no ATC.
Reset won't affect a manual system, or will it?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

ATC or manual. If the OP has access to a scan tool, the BCM may want to be
scanned for any door problems

 

Both the Automatic Temperature Control (ATC) and the Manual Temperature
Control (MTC) systems are controlled by the Body Control Module (BCM). Both
systems can be diagnosed by the scan tool or the vehicles own control head
display. There are three DTC tables. The ATC and MTC DTC table contain
faults that are common to both the ATC and the MTC system. The same
diagnosis can be used for both systems. The DTC's cover operation of the
climate control unit actuators, doors, evaporator temperature sensor,
ambient temperature sensor and the A/C refrigerant system. The MTC DTC table
covers Fault Codes that are for the MTC Control Head and wiring and are not
used on an ATC system. The ATC DTC table has DTC's for ATC Head
Communications, In-Car Temperature Sensor and Sun Sensor which are not in a
MTC system.

Some conditions of low battery voltage or extremely cold weather can
generate a DTC for the climate control system actuators, evaporator probe,
in-car temperature sensor (ATC), or ambient temperature sensor, even in a
properly operating system.

ATC AND MTC DTC's CODE DESCRIPTION
23 BLEND DOOR ACTUATOR FEEDBACK FAILURE
24 MODE DOOR ACTUATOR FEEDBACK FAILURE
25 AMBIENT SENSOR
31 RECIRCULATION DOOR ACTUATOR STALL FAILURE
32 BLEND DOOR ACTUATOR STALL FAILURE
33 MODE DOOR ACTUATOR STALL FAILURE
35 EVAPORATOR SENSOR FAILURE
37 BLEND DOOR ACTUATOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO BATTERY
38 BLEND DOOR ACTUATOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO GROUND
39 MODE DOOR ACTUATOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO BATTERY
40 MODE DOOR ACTUATOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO GROUND
41 RECIRCULATION DOOR ACTUATOR OUPUT SHORTED TO BATTERY
42 RECIRCULATION DOOR ACTUATOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO GROUND
43 COMMON DOOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO BATTERY
44 COMMON DOOR OUTPUT SHORTED TO GROUND
51 SYSTEM VOLTAGE TOO LOW FOR DOOR CALIBRATION

MTC DTC's CODE DESCRIPTION
45 A/C CONTROL BLEND DOOR INPUT OPEN OR SHORTED TO GROUND
46 A/C CONTROL BLEND DOOR SHORTED TO BATTERY
47 A/C CONTROL - A/C SWITCH FAILURE
48 A/C CONTROL MODE DOOR INPUT SHORTED TO GROUND
49 A/C CONTROL MODE DOOR INPUT SHORTED TO BATTERY
50 A/C CONTROL ELECTRIC BACKLITE (EBL) SWITCH FAILURE

 

Also check that you have the Fresh air setting on. If you have it on
recirculate this will cause your windows to fog up.

 

Why does a pool of water under the passenger side where the drain is located
indicate a problem? Every car I have owned that was equipped with AC did
this ...

I agree it is worth checking, but not till it warms up some since my garage
is not heated and temperatures here have been brutal.

Thanks to all for their thoughts.

Bob

 

Glenn,

Thanks. I've saved the info you supplied for future reference. By the way,
I do not own a scan tool and have never had this vehicle to the dealer for
any service. I did just replace the battery (it was 6 years old) and had
the old one out for ten or more minutes before getting the new one
installed, and this had no affect on the situation.

So I've got two things to check: 1) A/C drain and 2) recirculation door.

As to there being moisture in the passenger compartment, I do have the heavy
floor mats in there that catch the snow and water and they do retain some
moisture, but I have these in other Chrysler vehicles and used similar
models in my previous car, which was a 1996 LH and had no problems. I've
got a couple things to look at when the weather improves. If that does not
work then it will go to the dealer to be scanned!

Thanks to all for the replies.

Bob

 

As mentioned previously, I have the base (no frills) SE model. The
recirculate setting on the control knob is only available at the two top
most positions (when using the dashboard vents), which I never use in the
winter (only use the bottom tow settings - windshield defrost and floor heat
in winter). But, as Glenn pointed out, it may not be working properly and
in fact be stuck in the recirculate position ... so must be examined to
eliminate that possibility. Thanks.

PS I used to have the auto climate control system on my previous vehicle, a
1996 Eagle Vision TSI. That system always worked flawlessly... It
certainly outperformed this system on the 2001 Intrepid SE and also the one
in my 1999 Town & Country Limited van too!

Bob

 

I think he mis-read your post, Bob. When you said a pool of water
*under* the passenger side (i.e., on the garage floor), I believe he was
thinking a pool of water *in* the passenger side (i.e., wet carpet).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

When you replaced the battery....did you replace it outside the calibration
window of 50-80 degrees? or did you do it outside in the cold weather?
which would mean it was not calibrated correctly. Did this problem occur
after the battery was replaced or was it possibly caused by a faulty
battery?

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech