2000 Concorde LXi Tranmission

There seems to be a difference of opinion concerning the transmission fluid
here. The service manual - based upon my driving habits - claims no change
is necessary. The dealer claims - after checking the fluid - no change is
necessary.

I can understand the position one might take if they have changed fluid over
the years with no incidence of trans failure. However, that fact alone -
particularly in view of recommendation from the manufacture NOT to change -
doesn't serve as proof that changing fluid prevents failure. The same
results may have occurred without the changes.

On the other hand, it may be like chicken soup as a remedy for the common;
it can't hurt. That being the case...

Q3) How do I get ALL the fluid out of the system if I drain it myself,
check the magnet, and replace the filter?

Q4) Do I need any "special" tools for any part of the job? (I don't think
I did for the '95 Concorde I had)

Q5) How much would be left in the system if I simply dropped the pan and
drained? (Assuming the pan is the only thing I could drop reasonably)

 

Nope.

Labor time is;
diagnose 1.0 hrs
replace input speed sensor .5 hrs
replace output speed sensor .5 hrs

 

Only if one makes certain assumptions and/or jumps to conclusions.

That would be up to an individual library system.
On line, I doubt it.

The dealer charged exactly what the labor guide calls for.

Varies by region.

 

The manual has claimed "No fluid change is necessary" for decades now. It
was OK to follow this suggestion in the days of the overengineered,
bulletproof Torqueflite transmissions. With the electronic transmissions,
it's difficult to change the fluid often enough.

How lucky do you feel? Are you comfortable gambling the $2500 (plus or
minus) repair cost on this academic bit of sophistry?

You don't, if that's the procedure you use. But that's OK, 'cause you
don't have to. The idea is fluid replenishment.

Don't worry about it, see Q3.

 

The dealership I work at would have charged you 1 hr labor, In order to
verify which part is bad you would have had to at least remove the
connectors to perform the test, therefore half the work was already done.
The book that AArcuda is referring too normally says test and replace, .5
for each sensor. He would be charging you an overlapping time of 1.0 hr.
( 1.5 is an average labor price and as I said on the high side)

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

My answers to your questions are embedded below.

Bob

This is indeed terue, but the early Chrysler FWD electronic transmissions
experiencesd a lot of early failures and word of mouth in this group seemed
to confirm that frequent changes coupled with additional fluid coolers
helped improve the life. I still follow this even though the product has
obviously been improved.

Again, absolutely true. My philosphy has always been to do PREVENTIVE
maintenance where ever possible. You and everyone else are free to do
whatever you like.

Again, I agree. It can't hurt if done right.

I do not get all the fluid out. I just get what I can and let it drain
overnight. I figure I get 5-6 quarts each time which is roughly speaking
about half.

No special tools needed: A 3/8" ratchet and appropriate metric socket, some
extenders, possibly a swivel if there is a bracket in the way (I do not
think there was one, but each vehicle was different), a gasket scraper or
wire brush, some brake cleaner and a torque wrench to re-tighten the bolts.

See comment above. I do this to get the gunk out of the pan as there is
always residue there which I am assuming comes from the clutch material. I
also do this to change the filter as well. This just seems like good
practice to me as I would never change engine oil and leave in a dirty
filter even though this is what the OM says to do every 7500 miles. (I
change engine oil and filter religiously at 3K miles and have never had an
engine failure of any kind in over 30 years of driving.)

 

Not true. The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was
not working tells you with a fair degree of certainty that the output
sensor was bad.

I get the impression from some people that some dealers would not do
certain work, like replace a sensor, without doing and charging for a
diagnostic. Out of curiosity, if I walked into your dealership and said
"I am pretty certain that my output sensor is bad. If I agree to pay
your price for replacing the sensor and accept the possibility that that
isn't the problem, will you replace the output sensor without charging
me for a diagnostic test?" would they do that?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Correct. That's the beauty of the DIY non-power flush method. Combined
with first dropping the pan to replace the filter, you then use the
tranny's own pump to pump the fluid at normal rates out of the cooler
return line. You get a 95+% fluid changeout, cleaned pan and magnet,
new filter, and non of the risks of the power flush at minimum cost.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

That may be true. However, I have read on forums of DC dealers refusing
to honor a warranty repair on a tranny because the fluid was not
changed. When the customer complained that their driving meets the
Schedule A conditions, the dealer claimed that they refuse to recognize
that Schedule A driving is possible and that they consider Schedule B
the only valid schedule - claim denied.

Glad you asked. I posted this info. recently in another thread: "See
this thread on the 300M Enthusiasts forum to see how it's done (300M and
Concorde power trains and chassis are identical - in fact, the photos in
my post in that thread show where I spliced the cooler return line on my
Concorde for changing out the tranny fluid):
http://300mclub.100megs42.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6295&highlight=return+fluid".

Now - truth is, it is a dilution process, so it will never be 100% fluid
exchange. But if you use, say, 12 quarts of fluid in the flush, the
replacement will be 95+% complete (vs. 40% of a simple pan drop and add
fluid).

System holds slightly less than 10 qts. Dropping the pan ends up
"wasting" 4 to 4-1/2 qts. You do the math. 8^)

Another method that is between the method that I posted above and simply
dropping the pan as far as effectiveness of fluid exchange is to drop
the pan (replace filter), close it up , fill with new fluid, drive for a
few miles, drop pan again, close up, fill with fresh fluid. WAG - about
70 to 75% effective exchange of old/new fluid.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

$65 is about what you can get *both* sensors (combined) for, every day,
all over the place. Thanks for posting all this stuff. It reminds me
of a big part of why I do as much of my own work as possible.

Yeah - "I like *this* mugger over here better than that one over there
because this one only took my cash and not my credit cards too. I
really respect him because when he stabbed me, he didn't twist the
knife." 8^)

Apparently as much as they want it to be. Let's see - 30 minutes work
for $250 - I think that works out to about $500/hr. 8^)

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Is that what they would have paid you Glenn, one hour?

Misleading at best. There is more to the diagnostic than just
checking the sensor.

Really?
Did you check?
Which labor guide did I use?
Chiltons?
Mitchell?
Real Time?

I suspect that you're BSing since that is not what the labor time
guide describes.

 

Just for the heck of it, I've drafted a letter to Chrysler with most of the
comments made here (no names) concerning fluid change. I'm curious to see
what Chrysler says. When I hear from them, I'll post the results.

Thanks to all of you for the help and comments. I picked up a few pointers.

 

whats not true?

The fact that, along with the limp mode, the speedometer was

And yes if the cust only wanted the part we would have to install the part.
The same as nrake work, if the cust doesnt want the rotors turned, we wont
machine the rotors,
There will be notes on the owners RO

 

I wonder if you read the word normally in this statement?

 

Good luck in getting a reply back from them

 

Read the very next sentence I wrote. You said that to verify which part
(I assume you mean input vs. output sensor), you have to run a
diagnostic. My very next sentence (still below) says that the fact that
the speeodmeter doesn't work when it goes into limp mode tells you that
it's the output sensor. If the customer already told you that, then you
are ripping him off by charging him to re-discover what he already told
you that completely diagnoses it for you.

Well good. So why do you perform and charge for a diagnosis when the
customer already told you the work he wanted done and the diagnosis
won't affect the outcome? That's like going to a doctor with a cut on
your finger, and he won't sew it up until he takes photos of the cut and
sends it off to a specialist to verify that it is indeed cut and that it
needs to be sewn up. For goodness sake - sew it up and quit gouging the
customer with bogus charges.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

 

Yes I did. Your use of the word "normally" suggests that on one
day the page in the labor guide says one thing and on another
day, it says something else.

 

Oh I'll get one... guaranteed. I asked for the warranty service record on
the '95 Concorde I bought used and they refused to give it to me saying it
was "confidential" between them and the original customer. I gave them my
explanation of why it was public record and they stuck to their guns. I
wrote my Senator (Ohio) and gave my side of the argument. The file arrived
about three weeks later. I'll get an answer. What I'm concerned about is
getting a wishy-washy answer and that is something I can't fight
successfully. "Gotta see the car"... "Each case is different." And they
successfully skit the issue. We'll see what happens.

 

Output speed sensor died or connection came loose.

Without a valid output speed reading, the transmission controller
assumes that the transmission is slipping and reverts to "limp" mode-
you have 2nd gear and reverse, nothing else.

as though I were stuck in first gear.

Second gear, actually.

.. Now I sit here

Sensors are cheap. Probably $30 or so for the part, plus installation.

Nothing inherent. Replace the sensor and get on with life.

 

Let me play Karnac the Magnificent, and I'll predict the reply:

---

Dear Mr. Gregory,

Thank you for your letter concerning your DaimlerChrysler product. We
appreciate your business and your concerns are important to us.

Regarding your questions about transmission fluid change intervals,
please refer to your owners manual. Follow the service schedule that
corresponds to the way you use your DaimlerChrysler Vehicle.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if we may be of help in the future.

---

The problem is that your letter will go to some MBA/Marketing type, not
to an engineer. Its that way at all car companies, which is why the rest
of us hang out here to exchange more useful information.

Although, I DID once mention on a new vehicle survey that my '73
Plymouth had over 380,000 miles (at the time, now over 430,000 miles)
and that I expected my wife's (then nearly new, now 220,000 miles) 93
Vision to be at least that good or I'd be really disappointed. They sent
me a nice cast aluminum "Chrysler 100,000 mile club" license plate
frame. So at least they're good for something, although they should
have given me 3.8 "100,000 mile" license plate frames