1996 Dodge Grand Caravan won't start or barely runs

My 1996 Grand Caravan (3.3L) stalled last week at a light. It does that
often, but this time it was difficult to get it restarted. It finally
started and off I went. About a mile later, it stalled again, this time
it wouldn't restart. I left the van and came back to it periodically to
try to get it started again, but with no luck. I got it towed home over
the weekend and went to try to start it. It took about 20 minutes (and
a constant jump from my wife's Quest), but I finally managed to get it
to start, but it would only idle at about 500RPM and would stay running
for about a minute on average, with the longest being about 5 minutes.
If I even so much as breathe on the accellerator, the car dies and I
have to start it again.

My first thought was the fuel pump's dead, but getting the car to run
(barely) all but ruled it out. I thought that maybe the filter needs to
be changed, which could be the case seeing as how it's never been
changed since I got the van (90K miles, it now has 126K). Someone
suggested the EGR or fuel pressure regulator. Any thoughts on what this
could be? I have no problems doing the work myself (I've replaced the
water pump, front and passenger side motor mounts, and several hoses)
so I kinda just need to be led in the right direction and I'll take it
from there.

 

I'm not sure from your description what the problem is with your van not
starting, but the fact that it idled rough and then died while idling at a
stop light tells me it probably needed a good and thorough throttle body
cleaning.

Before doing anything, you should check to see if there are any stored
engine diagnostic codes to help point you to a possible cause.

On the fuel filter, just replace it as it is long overdue and could be
causing fuel starvation or already caused permanent damage to the fuel pump.
Also add a bottle of good fuel injector cleaner, like DuPont Techron, to
the gas tank too since your injectors could be badly clogged from the old
filter as well.

Also, you do not say when your 3.3 was last properly tuned. Symptoms you
describe could be related to fouled plugs or bad ignition wires.

Bottom line is that I'd recommend you start with these above simple actions
first so that you know where you stand. It might be the fuel pump has gone
bad. If so, then a pressure test on the fuel rail will reveal this to be
the case.

Bob

 

I haven't given it a tune up at all. I did buy new plugs, air filter,
and oil filter the day before this happened figuring that I had put it
off long enough. I'll grab wires today and see if this helps at all.

BTW, how do I clean the throttle body?

 

I think it probably IS the fuel pump. They don't always fail completely,
and may continue to try to pump. Go down to Autozone, or equivalent, and
rent or borrow a fuel pump pressure gauge. Hook up at the fuel rail and
monitor the pressure as you try to start the vehicle. The fuel pump
should run the first 2 seconds when the key goes to "on" and give you
approx. 45psi. Then when the engine starts (if it does) it should
continue to give a steady 45 - 48psi.
My bet is that your not getting much if any volume or pressure.

 

I had a similar problem but mine is old spark plug wires. the one
between the distributor and the ignition coil was bad.

you can eliminate the fule problem by spraying carb cleaner in tothe
intake and see if it runs that way. ifnot you have a spark problem...

 

I had the same thing happen to my 1996 -- it would stall and then after
wating awhile run just fine. It was the fuel pump.

Tim

 

Just out of curiousity, it is my understanding that the fuel pump is
actually in the fuel tank. Does the design allow for the pump itself
to be replaced? or are you stuck replacing the tank/pump as an
assembly? What were the approximate costs? (I have a 94 GC w/3.3l)

 

yes

or are you stuck replacing the tank/pump as an

I think pumps are around $100-200. For most people the
labor is the expensive part. Hopefully your fuel tank is nearly
empty.

For the future, note that the fuel pump is cooled by gasoline.
If you make a point of refilling your gas tank when the level
hits the 1/4 mark instead of letting it draw all the way down,
the fuel pump will last a lot longer.

Ted

that depends if your going to do the work or not.

Ted

 

I believe that to be a myth. The overwhelmingly greatest amount of
cooling is from the continual flow of the fuel *thru* the pump (bathes
the armature, commutator, brushes, bearings/bushingds, etc.). The
cooling effect of mostly stagnant fuel around the envelope of the pump
(or its absence) is going to have little effect on those ciritical
internal parts. There might be some small thermal effect on the magnets.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

 

Myth or not, I HATE IT when my tank gets to less than 1/2 a tank. When
I was a child, my mom had a Volkswagen Square Back. The gas gauge on
this car was NOT linear, it was exponential! So it looked like it was
"full" for a long time. THEN, the needle would drop like a rock! Worse
than that, there was no "E" for Emplty, there was an "R" and a little
warning flag to signify "RESERVE". You could travel around 40 miles on
the "Reserve". The problem is that mom would jump into the car day
after day and say "Oh, I'm on reserve, no problem!". We would often
run out of gas and get stuck. Henceforth I have an aversion to letting
my tank get "low". I always feel like a car runs better on a full tank
as well (personal superstition .

As well, I find that the gas gauge on my GC does pretty mych the same
thing. It will stay "full" for a long time. But once is starts to
drop, it drops very quickly. So I avoid any problems and just fill up
before it gets below 1/2 - unless I am on a long trip on a freeway.
Then I will look for a fill as I cross 1/4.

 

That could be true, but one other thing that might be an issue is if the
pump
is fully submerged, it's fully primed when it starts. If it's not submerged
or
partly submerged, with just the pickup tube in the fuel, then when the
engine
is started the pump has no fuel in the internal parts and pumps air for a
second or so. Whether this introduces significant wear I don't know, I've
never had an in-tank fuel pump fail and so have never taken one apart to
see what part does the failing.

Ted

 

What does the failing is usually the brushes wear out. An easy way to tell
the condition of the pump if you have the tools is to view the current draw
pattern on an oscilloscope. If the pattern is a smooth ripple from the
brushes crossing the comutator segment gaps all is usually OK. If you see
regular current spikes then there is something shorting two adjacent bars
together and if you see either random or regular dips or dropouts the
brushes are almost worn out and all it takes is for the rotor to stop at a
spot where they lose contact when you shut off the engine to leave you
stranded. Note that when the brushes are no longer making constant contact
that the pump motor will also slow down reducing the available volume of
fuel for hard accelleration etc.

 

According to a few repair shops, the problem was the fuel pump. They
all wanted $500+ to replace it with the most expensive being $585 to
replace the pump and filter. I did the job myself with hand tools and a
couple of jacks. $129 for the pump, $19 for the filter. The biggest
problem with doing it was putting the gas tank, with about 5 gallons of
fuel in it, back into place. The actual job of lowering the tank,
disconnecting all of the hoses, and getting the pump out wasn't that
bad. I started at 8am and had that part done by 11am. The hard part was
putting it back up with the tools I had.

If I had the proper tools, and empty tank, and a lift, this would have
been a 2 hour job. I have to wonder what the hell the shops were going
to charge me for.

 

Maybe they were going to charge you that because they have to pay for those
proper tools!!!!

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

 

Do you think they get those proper tools for free?

Matt

 

The only proper tool they would have had was a hydraulic lift (and
possibly a strap wrench). Two of the shops even told me that they would
use a hammer and chisel to get the lock nut over the pump off.

Oh, and a mechanical siphon to get the gas out of my tank.

Other than that, everything unbolts with simple sockets. With labor
running at about $50-$60 and hour, a two hour job should have run me a
maximum of $120, not $300+.

 

No - there is a check valve in line with the pump - often built into the
pump itself. That keeps a column of fluid in the system - pump doesn't
run dry. Now - sometimes, if a car is hard to start in the morning
(i.e., typically takes two tries to start it), it's either because one
or more injectors are leaky (emptying out the fuel rail), or the check
valve at the pump is leaky - allowing the initial run-dry situation that
you mention. the two starts allows the intial second or so of pump run
time to re-fill/pressurize the system, and the engine starts on the 2nd
or 3rd try.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')